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Speed cameras on Heathrow Southern Perimeter Road, Threads merged
mwendo
post Wed, 1 May 2019 - 19:32
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I saw this on a poster (dated 30 April 2019) when I was at Heathrow Terminal 4 earlier today:


Subject: Speed Matrix and ANPR average Speed Cameras.
Overview/Impact:
Speed matrix and ANPR average speed cameras are being installed on the Heathrow Airport road network.
These are dual ANPR and speed enforcement cameras. They are utilised to improve security at Heathrow Airport, prevent crime and reduce speed on airport roads improving road safety.
Drivers exceeding the speed limit commit offences under the Police Reform Act 2002, section 59(1). This gives the Police the power of enforcement including the power to seize vehicles being driven in an inconsiderate or careless manor which includes speeding.
The Metropolitan Police will work in partnership with Heathrow Airport limited who reserve the right to challenge anti-social behaviour including speeding within the airport boundary.
The easiest way not to come to notice of the cameras is to obey the speed limit.
Within the airport boundaries the maximum posted speed limit is 30mph on single carriageways and 40mph on dual carriageways unless otherwise signed.
All forecourts have a maximum speed limit of 20mph
Staff car parks have a maximum speed limit of 15mph
Main Inbound and Outbound Tunnels 30mph and 20mph while in contraflow.
Your action and support is required to communicate this notice to your individual departments.


As I was leaving Terminal 4, some guys in a large silver van were just finishing the installation of a new camera on the Southern Perimeter Road between Terminal 4 and Hatton Cross. This road is 40mph and even though the road belongs to the airport, it is accessible by the public. The camera is of a design I have never seen before; it is a small yellow box with speed camera markings on it and a what appears to be a camera/flash across the top of the front face. It is the size of a ream of A4 paper that has been stood on its end and it was fixed to a pole using cable ties. I would guess that these are going up all over the Heathrow perimeter road network which is either 30mph or 40mph including the dual carriageway between the M25 and Terminal 4.


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post Wed, 1 May 2019 - 19:32
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Jlc
post Wed, 1 May 2019 - 20:23
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Will make someone a few quid...


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Richy320
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 13:36
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Anybody know what these are? They're springing up like weeds all around Heathrow airport.



Accompanied by this letter



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Speed does not kill. It's more to do with how you stop.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 14:07
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Sweeping statement to say drivers exceeding the speed limit all “cause, alarm, distress or annoyance”.

Over reach anyone?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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PPC PCN's
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typefish
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 14:22
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 3 May 2019 - 15:07) *
Sweeping statement to say drivers exceeding the speed limit all “cause, alarm, distress or annoyance”.

Over reach anyone?


I look forward to police officers seizing their own vehicles, as I quite often find their actions annoying and alarming
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Jlc
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 15:38
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This thread too


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Boomer
post Fri, 3 May 2019 - 18:55
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I know that some people think that the police are “knuckle draggers”, but when an official letter says things like “seize vehicles being driven in an inconsiderate or careless manor” - you do have to wonder!
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Richy320
post Sat, 4 May 2019 - 08:34
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Bearing in mind that the car parks are private property but more importantly, are barrier controlled, ie the public do not have right of access, only pass holders, are speed limits actually legally enforceable?

Heathrow Airport has byelaws restricting speeds on non-public roads to 20mph. Is a non-public car park considered to be a road?

This post has been edited by Richy320: Sat, 4 May 2019 - 08:57


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Speed does not kill. It's more to do with how you stop.
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Richy320
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 08:03
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Does anybody know what these cameras actually are?

Speed cameras?

Average speed cameras?

ANPR cameras?

All or any of the above?


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Speed does not kill. It's more to do with how you stop.
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cp8759
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:23
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One thing I can promise you is that there's virtually zero chance the 15 mph limits are enforceable: No limit below 20 mph can be imposed without the consent of the Secretary of State, and as a matter of policy the DfT will not consent to limits below 20 mph because speedometers don't have a 15 mph line, so a motorist could not know with certainty whether they were doing 14 or 16.

The signage is also not TSRGD compliant and the whole thing has a bit of a mickey mouse feeling. I wonder whether the cameras even have Home Office approval.

It might be an idea to simply ask for the TMOs (though of course none are needed on a restricted road) and make a FOI request for the Home Office approval of the cameras.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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callumw
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 12:00
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They appear to be temporary/transferable, but here's the layout of the cameras as they are currently.


Attached Image




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cp8759
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:58
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QUOTE (callumw @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:00) *
They appear to be temporary/transferable, but here's the layout of the cameras as they are currently.


Attached Image

This leads me to be somewhat sceptical that the distances have been measured and certified to a standard that would hold up in court. I have a sneaky suspicion that any speed detections are disposed of by means of a scary letter. Remember some people believe everything the police say rolleyes.gif


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Albert Ross
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 19:31
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although they are on private property; aren't those roadways, where road traffic acts apply?

If they are? Why are they hoping to use Section 59 notices for speeding.

Does a noisy exhaust S59 in the car park compete with the Airbus a380 Super Jumbo departing runway 09L/27R

The notice itself reads as though it is placed in a staff [sic] area, as though to prevent staff who know where they are heading, speeding past the sunseeker that is traveling the long way around the perimeter road at 20 mph and slowing to read every sign on their way.


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The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.
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Richy320
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 06:33
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I think I’ve worked out what they are.

They are traffic signs!

The photos don’t show it but before each of the “speed cameras” is a matrix sign showing your speed. The actual “cameras” have ‘Westcortec’ written on the side.

Somebody has had the bright idea of adding a speed camera warning sign to the speed detector element of the matrix sign to frighten everyone into believing that they are speed enforcement cameras.


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Speed does not kill. It's more to do with how you stop.
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baroudeur
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 14:02
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QUOTE (Richy320 @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 06:33) *
I think I’ve worked out what they are.

They are traffic signs!

The photos don’t show it but before each of the “speed cameras” is a matrix sign showing your speed. The actual “cameras” have ‘Westcortec’ written on the side.

Somebody has had the bright idea of adding a speed camera warning sign to the speed detector element of the matrix sign to frighten everyone into believing that they are speed enforcement cameras.



https://www.westcotec.co.uk/ wink.gif
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MrBoeingPilot
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 14:34
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The speed matrix signs were up and working long before the cameras behind them appeared. The matrix signs are self contained with the radar detector.

The new cameras, which are all of some kind of case with a handle attached and somewhat portable looking have a camera, flash and antenna on them. The ones in the staff car park are identical to the ones around the perimeter road. I also noticed today a new sign in the staff car park stating that there is now ANPR speed enforcement. How they’re going to enforce a 15 mph limit is beyond me.

Not sure how Heathrow Airport can enforce bylaws for speeding offences. Just like parking offences on bylaw regulated land, I think there is a time limit and if you can obfuscate who the driver was for at least 6 months, they cannot take further action.

However, all the staff cars that use he staff car park will be registered to the employee who works at the airport and it will be interesting to see if they start to delve into data that was never given for this purpose, to track the employee.

When the police were contacted about these cameras their reply was simply that it is the Airport Operator who has installed the cameras and it is up to them to pass on information about them. The question asked is whether these cameras are legal speed cameras or just advisory and reporting devices? Also asked was “In the event that an individual is subject to action as a consequence of your cameras, can you kindly publish the technical data and testing of these devices that demonstrate their results are of an evidentiary standard.”

So, the police have passed the buck to HAL and so far, no response from them. Can a 15mph speed be enforced?

Anyone else have a view on this?

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Jlc
post Fri, 17 May 2019 - 16:36
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Byelaws say:

QUOTE
5. Prohibited acts on parts of the airport to which the road traffic enactments do not apply
The following acts are prohibited on any part of the Airport to which the road traffic enactments do
not apply:-
5.1 Driving offences
No person shall drive a Vehicle:
(a) Dangerously;
(b) Without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using that
part of the Airport;
© Whilst operating a mobile telephone or other handheld device; or
(d) Without prejudice to any notice from the Airport Company of the airport from time to time at a
speed in excess of 20 miles an hour on the Airport’s apron or roads or in excess of such other speed
limit indicated by a Sign erected in a conspicuous or appropriate position or by a Sign which conforms
to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, which speed shall not in any event be
more than 40 miles per hour except in an emergency.


How they'll pursue any offences is going to be interesting.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Aiden
post Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:10
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As it's now been over two weeks, has anyone yet to receive any form of communication from the police if you've been caught speeding?
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cp8759
post Mon, 20 May 2019 - 11:36
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QUOTE (MrBoeingPilot @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 15:34) *
When the police were contacted about these cameras their reply was simply that it is the Airport Operator who has installed the cameras and it is up to them to pass on information about them.

Any information passed over will be promptly filed in the bin. The cameras would need to be Home Office type approved devices and properly calibrated to be used for speed enforcement. There is zero chance that evidence from privately owned cameras would ever be used for speed enforcement.

In any event, a 15 mph speed limit is not enforceable under any realistic circumstances.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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callumw
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:02
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From a friend at Heathrow:

CODE
You may have noticed that small yellow cameras have appeared on the Northern Perimeter Road.
They are positioned just after the signs that show your speed.

These cameras will record your speed and registration index and the police will be informed.
You cannot be prosecuted but repeat offenders will be contacted by the police.

Please ensure that you stick to the speed limit.

Quite a difference from the "we can impound your vehicle" notice in the original post.

It never made any sense from the start. How can it be APNR when there are traffic lights and roundabouts between most of the cameras?
Other than that, the cameras weren't on the list of known enforcement equipment: 15 Different Speed Cameras Used in Britain

The link above may not be comprehensive, but the official cameras have a certain ... "look" about them that the Heathrow cameras lack.


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