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UKPC - Can I appeal? What should I do?
liquidcool
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 10:17
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Hi,

This weekend the driver of a vehicle (SIC) got one of these "parking tickets" from UKPC. They parked on an industrial estate where Harrowall Climbing center is located in Harrow, London. They parked their car up along the wall outside the center where other cars have parked, and where they have parked many times before. They came out a few hours later to see some guy getting ready to put a ticket on the car.

Apparently the driver could only park within marked bays. There was no visible sign where they parked mentioning this. The driver was a little in shock and did not want to get into an argument as they had their young daughter with them.

Couple of things I picked up on after researching about these vultures:
1. I have checked online and the images they have as evidence and they do not show properly if the driver of the car was within a marked bay or not.
2. None of the images show a notice sign with reference to the car (Which could look like the picture of the car was taken anywhere)
3. Two of the images do not show the ticket on the windscreen. One of them looks like it was taken as the driver was driving away.
4. On the ticket it has the colour of the car incorrect. Car is registered with the DVLA as GREY not BLACK (which is what they put on the ticket)
5. Wording on the ticket states - "Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or SPACE". reference back to point 1.
6. The car was not obstructing any traffic. A lorry could pass between the car and others parked. So no loss or damages would have been incurred by any estate residents.
7. There is a picture on evidence for the sign, but it does not mention anything about parking within marked bays.

Where does one stand with this ?

Should they appeal online? should they wait past the 14 days and then appeal ?

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

This post has been edited by liquidcool: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:45
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post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 10:17
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Jlc
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 10:45
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Can we have a clear picture of the sign?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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liquidcool
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 11:09
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That is the full image downloaded from their site under the evidence for the driver's "offence". They don't have any other. Sorry.

This post has been edited by liquidcool: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:45
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ostell
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:36
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So you go into your posts, both of them so far, and edit them so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver......"etc.

You get your own pictures of the location and the signs, or lack of them, in relation to where your car was parked.

You appeal the windscreen ticket so that the appeal arrives on day 26. This is so that they save £2.50 by not contacting the DVLA and possible not send Notice to Keeper. They just continue to write to you to try and persuade you to pay. No NTK and no DVLA contact means keeper no liable.

You use a slightly modified form of your address so that it is still deliverable but different from the address on the V5 so you will be aware if the DVLA has been contacted or not.

Get those pictures first but the Sign looks like a forbidding sign in that it is not offering parking to unauthorised persons, therefore no contract, therefore there can be no breach of an alleged contract.

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worzox
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:36
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QUOTE (liquidcool @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 11:09) *
That is the full image downloaded from their site under the evidence for my "offence". I don't have any other. Sorry.


You should probably return to the site and get some clearer photos of the signs. At the moment you have no real record of what they say
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ostell
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:38
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@worzox Edit your post as the quote hints at who may have been driving. Indeed take out the quote completely
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liquidcool
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:11
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 12:36) *
You appeal the windscreen ticket so that the appeal arrives on day 26. This is so that they save £2.50 by not contacting the DVLA and possible not send Notice to Keeper. They just continue to write to you to try and persuade you to pay. No NTK and no DVLA contact means keeper no liable.


Do they have a time limit as to when they can contact the DVLA from issue of the ticket ? And therefore over that time limit they cannot contact the DVLA ?
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Jlc
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:26
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For keeper liability, they have to wait 28 days and deliver with 56 days.

They will apply for the details on the first opportunity...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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liquidcool
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:28
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I was reading the BPA code of conduct and notice point 18.2 about entrance signs:
QUOTE
Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a
parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore,
as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about
the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have
a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the
parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car
park is managed and that there are terms and conditions
they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some
minimum general principles and be in a standard format.
The size of the sign must take into account the expected
speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is
recommended that you follow Department for Transport
guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an
entrance sign and more information about their use.
A standard form of entrance sign must be placed at the
entrance to the parking area. There may be reasons why
this is impractical, for example:
• when there is no clearly defined car park entrance
• when the car park is very small
• at forecourts in front of shops and petrol filling
stations
• at parking areas where general parking is not
permitted


Seeing that there were no signs at the entrance that clearly stated details about the parking restrictions, could a case be argued on this point ?
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Ollyfrog
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:31
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Yes, search for PoFA so that you understand the process. Or read some of the other threads to get an insight.

If it's ANPR capture it's before day 14
If they slap a ticket on the screen it's days 29-56.

Outside of those times and they cannot hold the KEEPER liable, only the DRIVER.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:31
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It would be A point
One of many
The usual popla appeal (the one that usually matters, bar the odd cancellation from SMART or Highview at first appeal) is around 4000 words.
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liquidcool
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:38
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Also saw point 19.5 :
QUOTE
If the parking charge that the driver is being asked to pay
is for a breach of contract or act of trespass, this charge
must be proportionate and commercially justifiable. We
would not expect this amount to be more than £100. If
the charge is more than this, operators must be able to
justify the amount in advance


I guess the case on this can be argued that no commercial entity was affected in any way and therefore it would not be commercially justifiable ?

This post has been edited by liquidcool: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 13:39
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ostell
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 17:56
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THe idea is to get them to respond to your first appeal and enter into a conversation with you so that they forget to apply by day 56 or use the details you give them to write a Notice to Keeper or even not issue a Notice to Keeper, any of which is a failure. (And it has worked).

They will no doubt reject anyway (there is no money to be made accepting appeals) and then the arguments continue to POPLA. If there is a non POFA compliant NTK issued then you raise this with POPLA and you win. No chance to raise a compliant NTK as it's gone past 56 days.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:55
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So, a fairly simple straightforward appeal to them about signage, to arrive at day 26. Post your draft here. Don't forget, the clock is ticking.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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liquidcool
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 08:57
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 10:45) *
Can we have a clear picture of the sign?


Here is a clearer picture of the sign
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ostell
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 09:13
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Yep that's a forbidding sign. There is no offer of parking to unauthorised drivers therefore no contract is created therefore there can be no breach and therefore no claim for breach. The only claimant is the landholder for trespass.

Here's something I copied about a forbidding sign requiring a permit. Needs modifying for your situation.

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 09:14
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liquidcool
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 10:48
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@ostell

Thank you for that. I have just read the case UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016] and pretty much is exactly the same as what we have here. Even the sign in evidence in the case is basically the same.

We will write up a draft appeal and post up if ppl are happy to contribute to it before it is sent off.

This post has been edited by liquidcool: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:17
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ostell
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:15
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No, there is NO offer to unauthorised drivers. The terms apply to the Authorised Parkers.
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liquidcool
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:18
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@ostell

I think our responses got crossed ;-) I have just edited the post
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