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Parked on private land.
CerealKiller
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 11:21
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Hi all.

Recently I received a parking ticket from our local council. I had parked inside double yellow lines in an access road to a farm gate. I don't believe the council own the land and therefore have no right to ticket me. I have genuinely parked there for years without problems, I also have a disabled badge I could have displayed if I felt the need to, but I genuinely didn't think I was contravening any parking laws.

I was about 8 foot ( 2.4m ) inside the lines, I wasn't restricting access as the mouth of the road is huge.

How do I stand ??

Thanks
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post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 11:21
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CerealKiller
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 14:58
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Hi.

The large picture of my van is still in post 14, the stones they are referring to are in another area about 100m or so further along the road.

Thanks.
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 21:45
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QUOTE (CerealKiller @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 14:58) *
The large picture of my van is still in post 14, the stones they are referring to are in another area about 100m or so further along the road.

Can you get us a picture of this?


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CerealKiller
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:05
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 21:45) *
QUOTE (CerealKiller @ Tue, 19 Nov 2019 - 14:58) *
The large picture of my van is still in post 14, the stones they are referring to are in another area about 100m or so further along the road.

Can you get us a picture of this?


I will pop over later and get a pic of that area for you.

Here is the reply I had from Parking with their photograph taken upon the day, sorry it's very bad quality, it's not my picture.

https://ibb.co/RNjzJKp
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:56
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A sketch or marking on a map may be better for us to understand.
We need to see where the stones they refer to relate to where you were parked?

ATM I am not clear whether the stones are further along the side road where you were parked or in another place 100yds further along the main road.
Or totally mythical.

This comes down to where is the border of the main road, how the reasonably diligent motorist would infer this and if it is not obvious, what indications are in place to make it so.

From information we have at present, I would infer that the border is the line of hedges that border the main road.
That you were not in a layby where (despite guidance on where the lines should be) the yellow lines may still apply
And that you were in a side road, behind the line of hedges.
And as such, not guilty of the contravention cited.

But council obviously have other ideas so we need to understand to ensure further challenges challenge those.

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CerealKiller
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 18:17
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Hi.

I've sketched the road layout, I've added 2 pictures, one head on at the stones where the council say I was parked, and another from behind the stones towards where I was actually parked.

https://ibb.co/n1BLQRK
https://ibb.co/dgrBRd3
https://ibb.co/4tjq6JT

Thanks for all replies.

This post has been edited by CerealKiller: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 18:21
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CerealKiller
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 18:40
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Here are three more pictures of the area where I was parked. I've parked here for years with no issues.

https://ibb.co/ccGGZLg
https://ibb.co/HXJz43W
https://ibb.co/0qW89hG
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DancingDad
post Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 22:14
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I reckon 80-90% chance of a win on this should it get to adjudication.
It could be argued that you were still on highway and the yellow lines have effect up to the gate.
But my opinion and I would be arguing that once behind the hedgeline, as you were, you were no longer on the highway but on a separate road.
And if the council believe the restriction applies there, they should have carried the yellow lines into it.
Plus that they failed to consider by not even identifying the correct parking spot where the contravention occurred.

It's wait for the Notice to Owner now unless you feel inclined to pay the discount.
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CerealKiller
post Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 06:23
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 22:14) *
I reckon 80-90% chance of a win on this should it get to adjudication.
It could be argued that you were still on highway and the yellow lines have effect up to the gate.
But my opinion and I would be arguing that once behind the hedgeline, as you were, you were no longer on the highway but on a separate road.
And if the council believe the restriction applies there, they should have carried the yellow lines into it.
Plus that they failed to consider by not even identifying the correct parking spot where the contravention occurred.

It's wait for the Notice to Owner now unless you feel inclined to pay the discount.


Hi.

Thank you for your patience and your many replies, I really do appreciate them. I will fight it as I believe I hadn't done anŷthing wrong. As stated earlier, I had a current disabled badge which I could have used had I felt the need to do so, I think the CEO is just chancing his/her arm and their bosses always back them.

Do I need to do anything now, do I contact them and say I'm going to fight the ticket, or shall I await their next move ??

Thanks.
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 16:45
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Get your V5C out and check that the address is up to date.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Nov 2019 - 23:53
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 23 Nov 2019 - 16:45) *
Get your V5C out and check that the address is up to date.

That !
NTO will go to whatever address is recorded by DVLA.
We see too many cases where address has not been updated.

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CerealKiller
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 06:47
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All my docs are current ( I moved about a year ago ), I had my letter yesterday giving me 28 days to pay.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 08:17
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you were no longer on the highway but on a separate road

Cannot be. It's gated. The stile shows there's a PRW in the form of a footpath, there might also be a bridleway way, although the opening mechanism of the gate is not of the form used for these (lever protruding above the gate which can be activated by a mounted rider without the need to dismount).

Ordnance survey is not what's needed, the OP needs the highway terrier or separate Public Rights of Way register.

At present, and depending upon the rationale and procedural propriety of the authority's response to reps, I would not risk any re-offered discount.

I fear an adj would start from the point of damn inconsiderate parking, solely for the benefit of a driver who thinks they've found sanctuary within an otherwise restricted area whose actions severely restrict lgitimate access for others. Not a good starting point from which to conduct an 'it's not part of the road' defence IMO.

And OP, what you've received is not 'a letter', presumably it's a statutory notice to owner which you should post for us to review.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 08:18
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 08:35
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 08:17) *
you were no longer on the highway but on a separate road

Cannot be. It's gated. The stile shows there's a PRW in the form of a footpath, there might also be a bridleway way, although the opening mechanism of the gate is not of the form used for these (lever protruding above the gate which can be activated by a mounted rider without the need to dismount).

Ordnance survey is not what's needed, the OP needs the highway terrier or separate Public Rights of Way register.

At present, and depending upon the rationale and procedural propriety of the authority's response to reps, I would not risk any re-offered discount.

I fear an adj would start from the point of damn inconsiderate parking, solely for the benefit of a driver who thinks they've found sanctuary within an otherwise restricted area whose actions severely restrict lgitimate access for others. Not a good starting point from which to conduct an 'it's not part of the road' defence IMO.

And OP, what you've received is not 'a letter', presumably it's a statutory notice to owner which you should post for us to review.


I agree, the large boulders they talk off I think is the hedge and to me a part of your van is proud of that and within the restricted area, An adjudicator will not be looking kindley as HCA says


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DancingDad
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 13:44
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 08:17) *
you were no longer on the highway but on a separate road

Cannot be. It's gated. The stile shows there's a PRW in the form of a footpath, there might also be a bridleway way, although the opening mechanism of the gate is not of the form used for these (lever protruding above the gate which can be activated by a mounted rider without the need to dismount). ………….


What precludes that the style/gate cannot be across a separate road or indeed a private driveway?
Nothing says it has to be at the entrance, I got a gate at the back of my driveway, does not make my drive public highway or part of it.

I don't disagree that a proper council map would be nice but ATM and looking at the layout, where would a reasonably aware motorist consider the border of the highway where the yellow lines apply.... my belief is the hedge line.
Op was parked behind that (the green van BTW, not the pirrock in the red car)

Everything screams at me that the highway borders are straight and that where the OP was parked is outside, on a side road, bridle path, private driveway, it matters not, it is not the highway.

@PMB.... the boulders seem to be 100yds up the road?
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eshroom
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 19:57
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I would also contest that as the council has clearly misunderstood the location, they can't be deemed to have properly considered the appeal to the PCN.

Equally, if the council are unable to ascertain where the PCN was issued, then the description of the location is also clearly too vague. Councils are required to give an accurate description of the location when issuing PCNs.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:01
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@DD... wink.gif

Your argument has been predicated on this being a road and therefore restrictions along the main road cannot extend into an adjoining road, hence your comment about the DYL following the curve into this new road.

Cannot have it both ways.

It is clearly not a road in itself. What it is in the alternative would not change the fact that where the OP was parked is part of the marked road IMO.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:47
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:01) *
@DD... wink.gif

Your argument has been predicated on this being a road and therefore restrictions along the main road cannot extend into an adjoining road, hence your comment about the DYL following the curve into this new road.

Cannot have it both ways.

It is clearly not a road in itself. What it is in the alternative would not change the fact that where the OP was parked is part of the marked road IMO.

While I appreciate different opinions, where did I say that the DYL followed the curve into the "road" ??
I said that if the council wanted the DYLs to have effect on what seems to be a separate road, they should have put DYLs on it but that is as close as I came.

I am concerned on what is highway and what is not.
IMO where OP was parked is not, you disagree, ce la vie.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:52
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But it cannot be a road, as in public highway, because it's gated and without any indication to the contrary!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:56
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DancingDad
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 09:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 14 Dec 2019 - 21:52) *
But it cannot be a road, as in public highway, because it's gated and without any indication to the contrary!

The gate is someway in.
To me it looks like private road to farmlands, not a public highway as such.
Fully accept that whether private or not has little bearing.
But to me this is the equivalent to parking on a driveway that leads off from the highway.
The question mark is where do the effect of the DYLs end?

You say no indications to the contrary.
I disagree, there are solid verges and hedges along the whole border of the main road.
To me that is the clear indication of where the border is.
And OP is parked beyond that.

For arguments sake, if they were parked beyond the gate, we would not be having this discussion, that is a clear indication of any perceivable end to the effect of the DYLS.
All I am saying is that the gate is no more the boundary then the gate at the rear of my drive is.
That there is a gate is clear indication that this is not simply a layby, it is a separate road.

There is clear guidance that says a council should make it clear where yellow lines go over a break in the overt boundary line, that the lines should follow the edge of the carriageway.
They follow an edge, the front edge, in doing so, they leave it unclear as to the scope of the effect.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 15 Dec 2019 - 10:12
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You take the high private road and I'll take the low public road!
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