LDK Security Group LTD- Hospital Parking PCN, No Signage/Black Photos/Ticketed Twice |
LDK Security Group LTD- Hospital Parking PCN, No Signage/Black Photos/Ticketed Twice |
Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 22:08
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Hello again.
It has been a long time since I've had to post on here regarding a private parking ticket. I have done some reading "Post Beavis" and my understanding is that the goalposts have moved significantly, but many of the original defence points still stand. The keeper of the vehicle in question received two "parking charge notices" for parking in what appears to be a controlled parking area, adjacent to a hospital, but what seems to be private parking for a care home. There was no clear entry signage, and the signage which was there on closer inspection was lying on the floor and almost impossible to be seen at both times the "charge" was issued. In my opinion the photographs don't prove that any alleged contravention of the terms has occurred, even if the signage was indeed compliant. I'll let the photographs below speak for themselves. https://imgur.com/a/tH7zeB5 I have drafted an appeal which is the following: Dear LDK, As registered keeper I am appealing both your parking charge notices on the basis of the following: 1. No clear entry signage, and the signage which is present was found to be lying on the floor completely obscured and unlit 2. Photographs on one parking charge show complete darkness- the contravention has not occurred 3. Photographs on the other parking charge notice show the vehicle in question, but not that it was even parked in the area which you claim to be operating in Therefore both parking charge notices are invalid and should be dismissed Yours sincerely, Thanks a lot for your help. This post has been edited by Streptococcus: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 22:56 |
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Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 22:08
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Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 22:48
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
I was also wondering if the fact that they state a ticket should be displayed, but do not specify where on the car would be grounds for appeal?
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 03:48
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Private parking uses civil principles, so balance of probabilities, so
1/ If on Balance of probabilities the car in question was there, the photo's are sufficient 2/ If on balance of probabilities the ticket was displayed the judge would accept that, if no ticket was even bought the fact it may not say where to display it is of total irrelevance. Private parking is under contract law, thee is no need to 'dot the i's and cross the t's' as there would be for parking controlled by statute. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 07:51
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So you appeal as the keeper about the lack of visible signage and later inspection showed the signage on the ground and therefroe could not be seen and therefore no contract created. They have also failed to state section 9 (2) (f) in the required format, as well as other failurs in the POFA requirements and therefore the keeper cannot be held liable.
And then ignore anything else that arrives and don't park there again. |
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 20:16
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Thank you both for your replies.
Ostell, I'm a little confused with your post. At the bottom of the letter it quotes the POFA 9 2 f along with keeper liability if the drive is not known after 28 days. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you state it is not compliant. How best should I word my defence if I have misunderstood this? Should I appeal against the deficient signage or would an appeal against a breach of POFA be a stronger position? Also, I'm familiar with POPLA. I've done some research and can't seem to see much about the IPC appeal service. What happens if they find against me, is it likely that I will have to go to court? Thanks for your replies |
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 20:27
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
You don't appeal to IAS. It is a kangaroo court that guarantees the PPCs a certain level of rejected appeals. All you will be doing is giving LDK a decision to wave in court.
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 - 20:32
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Thanks Cabby. So unless they're with POPLA, its their appeal and then straight to court? Its been a long time since I've had to appeal a PPC so I'm just trying to get back to speed with everything. A lot seems to have changed post Beavis
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 08:52
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Sorry 9 (2) (e) is not in the required format. There are also a copule ofother details missing.
You appeal against everything |
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Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 12:15
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Why do yo uthink it is "straight to court"?
ONLY if they take you there Usuaully after a round or three of ignorable debt collcetor letters. |
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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 23:57
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Hello,
I'd been away so didn't get a change to reply sooner Thank you all for the replies so far I've just drafted an appeal for both tickets so feedback would be appreciated "Dear LDK Security Group LTD As registered keeper, I am appealing on behalf of the driver of the vehicle against the two parking charge notices I received for the following reasons: 1. The signage in the location was insufficient and does not comply with the British Parking Association guidance. There was no entry signage and there was no signage visible throughout the enforced parking area 2. Your Parking Charge Notice does not comply with section 9 (2) (e) of the Protections of Freedoms Act. Specifically you have failed to notify the registered keeper that: "if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;" 3. The evidence you have provided to me does not prove that the driver has parked in a an area controlled by yourselves, and you have failed to identify which signage was in operation at the site. 4. The Terms of parking state that a valid ticket must be displayed at all times, however does not state where in the vehicle it must be displayed As per my above appeal points, as registered keeper I request you therefore cancel these parking charge notices Yours sincerely" This post has been edited by Streptococcus: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:50 |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 07:23
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
You have identitfied the driver, not recommended
Put in ALL the POFA fails and the keeper cannot be held liable |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 08:35
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
You were told not to identify the driver, and thats even more important if youre actually relying on POFA - which you are
So, edit it. |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:41
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Thank you for pointing out that mistake. I have made the changes. On the reverse of the ticket, it does state on a tear off slip that this can be filled in to provide the driver's details. Does this not fulfil the 9 2 e part of the POFA?
Have they also failed to identify the creditor (POFA 7,2,E). It states payment should be made to LDK Security Group LTD, however the letter only states on the front page "we the creditor" without naming themselves? Thanks This post has been edited by Streptococcus: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:56 |
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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:57
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
No it doesn't !! The passages must be in the format stated. If you look at the start of 9 (2) it says "must". There's also no period of parking.
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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 19:27
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
I understand Ostell. Thank you so much for all your help. I'll revise my response and make sure all these points are addressed.
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Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 00:19
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Any feedback before I send this off would be appreciated.
Am I right in assuming once I get a response from LDK, there is little benefit in appealing to the IAS as it is effectively rigged, and that I am unlikely to win this appeal against LDK? "Dear LDK Security Group LTD As registered keeper, I am appealing on behalf of the driver of the vehicle against the two parking charge notices I received for the following reasons: 1. The signage in the location was insufficient and does not comply with the British Parking Association guidance. There was no entry signage and there was no signage visible throughout the enforced parking area 2. The "Parking Charge Notice" does not specify the period of parking alleged. Protections of Freedoms Act 2012 7 (2) (a) requires: "specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;" 3. The "Parking Charge Notice" fails to identify the creditor as required under the Protections of Freedoms act 2012 7 (2) (e) "identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made;" 3. The "Parking Charge Notice" does not comply with section 9 (2) (e) of the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012. Specifically you have failed to notify the registered keeper that: "if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;" 4. The evidence you have provided to me does not prove that the driver has parked in a an area controlled by LDK, and you have failed to identify which signage was in operation at the site. 5. The Terms of parking state that a valid ticket must be displayed at all times, however does not state where in the vehicle it must be displayed The parking notice does not meet the requirements as set out in the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012. Therefore keeper liability no longer applies. As the driver of the vehicle in question at the time is unknown you have no legal right to pursue me as registered keeper Yours sincerely" |
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Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 09:32
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
You will not win the appeal with IDK
You do NOT appeal to the IAS Youre doing this so you are seen as reasonable. |
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Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 23:42
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Understood nosferatu1001.
Do you have any more advice before I send the appeal off? Any more resources you can point me in the direction of to strengthen my appeal? From what I have read there is little point in mentioning GPEOL anymore post Beavis, is that correct? Thanks |
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Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 09:45
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Your appeal above is enough for now. GPEOL is dead unless you can argue very, very well.
Ensure you keep all letters received, in case they try court Ignore debt cpllectors, as 5 minutes research tells you LBA or court claim form - come back here. This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 09:47 |
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Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 19:07
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 143 Joined: 11 Nov 2013 Member No.: 66,634 |
Thanks for all the help so far and the excellent advice nosferatu100.
Just an update- I sent off the appeal a couple of weeks ago and I've heard no response, apart from two "Notices to keeper". I guess its just a waiting game to see if anything comes of this at all I'll keep you informed if I do. Thanks again for all the help! |
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