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[NIP Wizard] NIP: Travelling in the opposite sirection
Ozymandius
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 09:22
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2018
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M6 (NB-ATM) between junctions 7 & 8(NB)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I don't recall being in a 60 variable zone. I'm very surprised to be clocked doing 75, although that would have been far more likely if I was in an NSL on the M6. The query I have is that I was heading home, from Liverpool, i.e. heading South, junction 8-7.
Is this the fact that the camera was facing North, or have I been picked up in error?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:22:28 +0000
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post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 09:22
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Logician
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:01
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There may be some sort of error although it might be as simple as writing N/B for S/B, but that will not invalidate it. It is easy enough to miss the start of a variable speed section. I suggest to resolve this you write back asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. Then you should be able to see where this was and confirm it was your car.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.

This post has been edited by Logician: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:07


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The Rookie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:04
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Any error in the direction on the NIP is not going to be enough to invalidate it, it has to give the location (it does) it doesn't have to give the location.


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Logician
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:08
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:04) *
Any error in the direction on the NIP is not going to be enough to invalidate it, it has to give the location (it does) it doesn't have to give the direction.


Fixed that for you.



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Ozymandius
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:08
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Thanks, both, for the input. Very much appreciated.

C
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Ozymandius
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:29
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:01) *
There may be some sort of error although it might be as simple as writing N/B for S/B, but that will not invalidate it. It is easy enough to miss the start of a variable speed section. I suggest to resolve this you write back asking for any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. Then you should be able to see where this was and confirm it was your car.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, so do not risk that.


Hi, I've written to the force in question asking for any photographs, but have yet to receive a response. I'm getting a little concerned that the 28 days is going to elapse. There's no option 'I can't remember, please send me the photo' so what are my options? Do I need to make a declaration if I'm waiting for them?

Many thanks in advance

C
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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:36
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They don't have to provide photos.

You have to use reasonable diligence to identify the driver - the lack of photo's will not form a defence in itself.

If you do not know the driver and cannot identify them after the aforementioned diligence then you have the option (or more precisely they'll prosecute) to attempt the statutory defence at court. Should you not convince the bench then you get 6 points, MS90 endorsement and a large fine.

Have you tried calling them?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:35


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ozymandius
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:39
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:36) *
They don't have to provide photos.

You have to use reasonable diligence to identify the driver - the lack of photo's will not form a defence in itself.

If you do not know the driver and cannot identify them after the aforementioned diligence then you have the option (or more precisely they'll prosecute) to attempt the statutory defence at court. Should you not convince the bench then you get 6 points, MS90 endorsement and a large fine.

Have you tried calling them?


Thanks, to be clear, if it was my car then it was me driving. I'll take my lumps, but I'm not convinced it was my car.

I *would* call them, but no number on the letter. To the googles I suppose

Well that helped. Call in the morning.

Cheers

C

This post has been edited by Ozymandius: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:40
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southpaw82
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:46
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Name yourself as the driver then. If you’re convinced it wasn’t your car involved then the prosecution will have to prove that it was. Bear in mind you’ll have to turn down any course or fixed penalty offers before you get to see any evidence unless they do supply you with a photo.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Ozymandius
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:48
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:46) *
Name yourself as the driver then. If you’re convinced it wasn’t your car involved then the prosecution will have to prove that it was. Bear in mind you’ll have to turn down any course or fixed penalty offers before you get to see any evidence unless they do supply you with a photo.


Thanks. That hadn't occurred to me either. I assume though that I'll have to go to court and risk a larger fine / punishment?

Cheers

C

This post has been edited by Ozymandius: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:49
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southpaw82
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:54
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QUOTE (Ozymandius @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:48) *
I assume though that I'll have to go to court and risk a larger fine / punishment?

If you don’t get a photo up front, yes.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 17:57
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It's not unusual for both directions to be monitored. The location will have a single description. But the direction has no bearing on the location but I can see why it confuses.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ozymandius
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:19
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Thanks, everyone.

I'll see what offer they make.

It does rather feel that anyone can be almost coerced into admitting guilt simply because one is accused and there is a distinct advantage in *not* challenging the accusation. *sigh*

We are where we are.

C

This post has been edited by Ozymandius: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 19:56
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 09:26
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Yes, thats exactly where we are.
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Ozymandius
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:54
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:26) *
Yes, thats exactly where we are.


Needs a 'Like' button wink.gif

C
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Logician
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 16:48
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How would you avoid that except by abolishing courses and fixed penalties and making everyone go to court, where there would be no discount for a guilty plea and everyone would pay the same costs whether they pleaded guilty or fought the case? Everyone would then plead not guilty, as there could be a chance they would get off, so then there would need to be a lot more courts, and of course they would need to be staffed. Taxes would have to rise to cover that.

Needs a 'Not on your nelly' button.



This post has been edited by Logician: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 16:49


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Ozymandius
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 16:51
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:48) *
How would you avoid that except by abolishing courses and fixed penalties and making everyone go to court, where there would be no discount for a guilty plea and everyone would pay the same costs whether they pleaded guilty or fought the case? Everyone would then plead not guilty, as there could be a chance they would get off, so then there would need to be a lot more courts, and of course they would need to be staffed. Taxes would have to rise to cover that.

Needs a 'Not on your nelly' button.


Well you could just say 'We caught you speeding and here's the photo'

After all that's *all* the evidence they are likely to bring to court (with associated statements around camera calibration etc I'd expect)

But YMMV

C
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southpaw82
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE (Ozymandius @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:51) *
Well you could just say 'We caught you speeding and here's the photo'

And if there is no photo?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Ozymandius
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:15
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 18:02) *
QUOTE (Ozymandius @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:51) *
Well you could just say 'We caught you speeding and here's the photo'

And if there is no photo?


Then what evidence do they have that you were speeding?

C
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southpaw82
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:35
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QUOTE (Ozymandius @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 18:15) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 18:02) *
QUOTE (Ozymandius @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 17:51) *
Well you could just say 'We caught you speeding and here's the photo'

And if there is no photo?


Then what evidence do they have that you were speeding?

C

The evidence of a witness who observed your vehicle speeding and used an approved device (such as a ProLaser) and report on the reading obtained by that device in their evidence.

As above, but the witness used their in car speedometer.

As above, but the witness used a VASCAR device.

Or, in fact, any offence where a photo isn’t taken (since we’re not just talking about speeding offences).


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