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Are Camden Council committing Fraud? Castlehaven road ticket
EHR
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:29
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Hi all, I have received a parking ticket for parking on a single yellow on Castlehaven road at 22:41 on 23/09/2019

I contested the notice, saying that I had parked outside of controlled parking hours.

Camden have rejected the appeal claiming that "The vehicle was seen parked in CA-F (North West), where restrictions are in force Monday - Friday 8.30 am - 11 pm, Saturday an
d Sunday 9.30 am - 11 pm."

But on Camden's own parking zone map (which they provide a link to in the appeal rejection letter), Castlehaven is shown to be in CA-F (N) which is only restricted until 6.30pm

https://lbcamden.maps.arcgis.com/apps/View/...08e7acb33323e05


I am about to get very shirty with them as I think they are committing fraud in the hope that I might not properly understand/ check their restrictions.
But have I missed something?


Many thanks in advance for your advices,
Best,
EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:58
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post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:29
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stamfordman
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 19:33
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Your account is a bit confusing - the line by the Hawley Arms does have a timeplate, as you say. That's where the other current case is. If you were on another line and not on a continuation of that one and it has no sign then as DD says this is bombproof, apart from the mess they've made with the location.
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EHR
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:32
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Hi all, apologies this took so long to complete. I made it unnecessarily complicated by using photoshop but I hope the resulting image makes sense

This is the diagram of the road markings: <a href="https://ibb.co/mCc3ZbQ" target="_blank">https://ibb.co/mCc3ZbQ</a>

X marks the spot where I was parked - on a separate bit of yellow line without signage.

So I will contest their rejection through the camden.gov.uk/pcn-challenge/ portal along the lines of Dancing Dad's draft, adding in that I was parked on an unsigned yellow line which follows the CPZ times.

Finally - I was given a parking ticket for an unjust reason and then it was upheld for an even more unjust reason.
Can I not complain that Camden have wasted a lot of my time (and indeed yours!)
Surely there should be some way to fine them back for their double dereliction of duty?

Thanks again for all your help.
EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:41
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Neil B
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 03:38
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This is much clearer now.

The only improvement I suggest is to get pics of the signs in better context, i.e. broader shots so it's
clear where they are.

Probably not needed right now but later, if this had to go to adjudication.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 12:04
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QUOTE (EHR @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:32) *
Surely there should be some way to fine them back for their double dereliction of duty?

After the PCN has been cancelled, you can pursue a formal complaint via the corporate complaints process.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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stamfordman
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 12:12
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What's happened here is that the PCN was probably correctly served as that line I expect has an order different from the CPZ but the sign is missing, so the PCN cannot stand given the CPZ entry sign.

That the council has messed up the location regarding the CPZ just makes them look ridiculous.

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EHR
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 11:26
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Hi all, 2nd appeal submitted, based heavily on DancingDad's draft: https://ibb.co/ph3Hz5R
Big thanks to everyone for your help. Will let you know what I hear back!

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DancingDad
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 11:48
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QUOTE (EHR @ Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 12:26) *
Hi all, 2nd appeal submitted, based heavily on DancingDad's draft: https://ibb.co/ph3Hz5R
Big thanks to everyone for your help. Will let you know what I hear back!

I trust that you submitted the map, photos etc as attachments, not as links?
No council muppet is going to click a link nor would be expected to.
Always attach, don't link.
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EHR
post Fri, 25 Oct 2019 - 21:21
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Ah good point, have resubmitted with pics uploaded - thanks!
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EHR
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 14:59
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Received a response by email - they're not backing down yet... https://ibb.co/F81x2Cm
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Neil B
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 15:23
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That looks encouraging to me.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 16:55
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 15:23) *
That looks encouraging to me.


Plus 1
Not a fob off template, someone has sat up and taken notice.
One now hopes that the someone is not a full on muppet and will look afresh, check signage and cancel the thing.
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EHR
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:03
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RESULT! They have cancelled the charge. Thank you to everyone for your support and advice in getting there, especially DancingDad, Stamfordman and Neil B.

Page 1 of letter: https://ibb.co/VqRSPKC
Page 2: https://ibb.co/SwFmrMP

They still claim that they were right to issue it, but are cancelling due to the error made by their colleague in the previous response.

I think this is incorrect. The section of road which they indicate I parked on is correct, but there was no adjacent sign to indicate the variation from the CPZ.

I have a photo of the empty post to prove: https://ibb.co/4wq68d0

Until they update the signage, other drivers could easily fall foul of this and have to go through this whole rigmarole or mistakenly pay up.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 12:04) *
After the PCN has been cancelled, you can pursue a formal complaint via the corporate complaints process.


What do you think? Should I take any further action?

Best, EHR
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:23
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Nice one mate.

That is a typical fob off acceptance letter.
We are cancelling (Hooray)
But only cos we want to (que?)
Not cos we need to (boo)
Why they don't simply say yup, we fecked up in this instance so have cancelled instead of still trotting out the bullshine???
Maybe because it seems that their site survey doesn't include photographs of the current lineage.

But is the result you want.

Re a complaint...if you want to, will be that PCNs are being issued and pursued when applicable signage is not in place.
But what is your resolution?
An apology, compensation, that they stick a sign on the pole, cancel all the other PCNs served on that line?

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:26
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EHR
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:00
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Well I'd quite like all of these results DancingDad!

But my main concern is that Camden's Parking department have cynically created have created an impossibly confusing system to catch out drivers;. But they don't even adhere to their own rules - and make it extremely difficult to challenge.

There must be thousands of tickets being illegally issued - they expect drivers who may be passing through Camden on a one off, to understand system not in place in other London boroughs. A driver parking for the 1st time in the evening has NO chance of getting to grips with it - they would have to already know the system in order to go and find a CPZ sign, and by the time they got back to their car, they would have a ticket. And if they are brave enough to contest it, they get bamboozled with false rejections -which are still being cited when Camden finally rescind.

They are meant to be working FOR us, not against.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:32
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QUOTE (EHR @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:00) *
they expect drivers who may be passing through Camden on a one off, to understand system not in place in other London boroughs.



It's not unusual to have yellow lines with timeplates with different times to the CPZ. These are often at the edge of zones by busy streets. But the signage must be clear and often it isn't.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 11:46
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I agree with you EHR.
To me CPZs are the invention of the devil, second only to Restricted Parking Zones.
To expect a driver to see, digest and take in information on a parking sign that may be 1/2 mile before they are parking is IMO idiotic.
Doubly so when it is an RPZ and there are no lines.
Funnily enough, your situation is better, having local signs, mind you, it would help if they were actually on the pole.

Which to me is the main thrust of any complaint.
Not that there is a CPZ or a local restriction but that they are trying to enforce a local restriction without appropriate signage AND not even acknowledging this or seemingly being aware or the issue.

Bear in mind that part of the duties from CEO handbook is to check parking signs and report any that need attention.
Sorta fails when they plant a PCN on a car where the pole sign is missing, try to apply one on a different yellow line and then the backroom boys tell you all is good.
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EHR
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 12:03
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I was midway through writing this reply to stamfordman when Dancingdad's post came through, so apologies if I repeat some of DD's points.

I guess I think that the CPZ system makes it more likely for drivers to fall foul, not less. The system is meant to help drivers avoid parking in areas that could slow traffic/ be a nuisance.

And, I would argue, the CPZ system is dangerous. A driver entering a CPZ is on the move and therefore should be primarily concerned with driving safely, looking at other traffic, pedestrians and road safety signage. To also look out for CPZ signs, read and memorise them distracts them from driving safely.

There should just be simple signs on the roadside where they park, detailing the controlled hours.

In my particular case, as well as the signage being absent, it's not easy to see the CPZ notice as you enter the zone in darkness, it is on a corner and silhouetted by backlight.

This post has been edited by EHR: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 12:03
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stamfordman
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 12:38
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This discussion should really be in the flame pit now.

I know there are some people from out of town who have never encountered a CPZ but they must be getting rare as nearly all major towns/cities have them. Inner London is almost entirely made up of CPZs and if you are intending to park anywhere it does pay to check before you set off what the times are. The notion that central Camden wouldn't have CPZs is fanciful.

The signing of yellow lines apart from the CPZ is an issue and we have won several cases where it's not been clear, but usually not without a struggle.



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