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Are Camden Council committing Fraud? Castlehaven road ticket
EHR
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:29
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Hi all, I have received a parking ticket for parking on a single yellow on Castlehaven road at 22:41 on 23/09/2019

I contested the notice, saying that I had parked outside of controlled parking hours.

Camden have rejected the appeal claiming that "The vehicle was seen parked in CA-F (North West), where restrictions are in force Monday - Friday 8.30 am - 11 pm, Saturday an
d Sunday 9.30 am - 11 pm."

But on Camden's own parking zone map (which they provide a link to in the appeal rejection letter), Castlehaven is shown to be in CA-F (N) which is only restricted until 6.30pm

https://lbcamden.maps.arcgis.com/apps/View/...08e7acb33323e05


I am about to get very shirty with them as I think they are committing fraud in the hope that I might not properly understand/ check their restrictions.
But have I missed something?


Many thanks in advance for your advices,
Best,
EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:58
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Neil B
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 18:09
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Let's see the council pics and rejection.

Are sure you were on castlehaven?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 19:02
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It does look like a mistake - understandable to get cross but very unlikely to be deliberate.

Let's look a all the evidence as Neil says - the PCN is vital of course so post that.

Show us exactly where you parked on google street view.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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EHR
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 15:14
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Ah thanks for the IMGGB tip stamfordman, I was having trouble getting the images under the file upload limit.

I am still looking for the original PCN and will post when I find, but I think the info is superseded by my appeal and their response letter so maybe these will be enough?

This is my letter of appeal

NB I initially thought the reason I was given the ticket was because I parked on a yellow line next to a suspended parking bay, so I contested that the suspension did not extend to the single yellow line.

This was their response upholding the appeal and citing that I was in CA-F (NW):
Page 1:
Page 2

Here's their photos at time of ticketing: Pics


It definitely was on Castlehaven Road that I parked - this is the area of the street, though the street markings have since changed. Google Maps Castlehaven

And this is what the CPZ shows for Castlehaven if you check their online guide: CPZ map

Your thoughts much appreciated.
EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 15:15
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Neil B
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 18:21
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Couple of questions.

Have you chopped off the top of the rejection?

Is that ALL of Camden's pics?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 18:55
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Well it's dawning on me now that this is like the other case here and the yellow line has a time plate of up to 12 midnight Mon-Sun, or it should have. But Camden has been silly and put you in the wrong zone and is claiming a CPZ time instead.

Still winnable owing to juxtaposition of CPZ entry and hard to spot timeplate (if indeed there is one). Or on basis that they have sent you a silly rejection.


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1517583

back in time:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5420869,-...3312!8i6656

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 18:56
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Neil B
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 19:07
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 19:55) *
Well it's dawning on me now that this is like the other case here and the yellow line has a time plate of up to 12 midnight Mon-Sun, or it should have. But Camden has been silly and put you in the wrong zone and is claiming a CPZ time instead.

What I was getting at.

If Castlehaven noted on that (chopped?) rejection.

And if they chose not to offer a pic of the relevant sign.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 19:38
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Missing sign is irrelevant to me given the rejection.
They cite the wrong zone entirely as reason to reject, Castlehaven is not within the zone they considered.
Unless matters have changed, these are the relevant entry signs.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5420635,-...33;1b1!2i40
The other side shows the 8.30am to 11pm zone but that is going away from Castlehaven.

TBH, even with the limited information we have, I would be writing straight back to them.

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???
Your rejection letter dated ?????
Many thanks for your letter and the comprehensive explanation, pictures of signage and map.
May I ask how any of this is relevant given that I was not parked within the CPZ zone cited?
May I also remind you of your legal duty to consider all challenges made prior to the issue of a Notice to Owner and ask how your consideration of the wrong zone, totally failing to even cover the very basic point of where I was parked can be taken as satisfying that duty?
Without adequate explanation, I trust that you will now cancel the PCN.
Hugs and Kisses

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 20:08
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EHR
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 23:22
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Thanks all for your excellent help.

Neil B - The only stuff I chopped off the top of their rejection letter was my name/car reg/email address which I would have had to redact.
And that was all the pics they posted on their rejection letter. But I've just looked on their PCN challenge site and found one other pic, presumably of the sign - but it is illegible due to flare: Bad pic

stamfordman I just didn't see the tiny signs that you can see on Google streetview. Perhaps that is what the flared out image is meant to be of? I might go back and check if they actually exist. But what is this mad system where they have CPZ hours which are different to yellow line hours and different again to parking bay hours? Can it be legal? What is the point then of a CPZ? It doesn't exist in nearby boroughs. I am thinking its a deliberately impenetrable system designed to confuse motorists and raise parking revenues.

DancingDad I love your draft! Think I should go for it? Is antagonising them going to backfire on me due to the possible existence of the tiny signage?

NB they do not give me the opportunity to write straight back, they state that they will be sending a Notice to Owner, which I can make formal representations against outside of the discounted charge window . I get that this is a scare tactic, and am happy to take it to this point, but is there a channel I could use to contest again in advance of this?

Thanks again for your expert advice,

Best, EHR
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DancingDad
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 23:36
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Before sending anything, let's see the bad pic.
The ones I've seen at the moment simply put a car on a single yellow.
No context to place the vehicle or suggest anything other then a CPZ contravention.
The rejection letter is fully comprehensive, extremely persuasive and far better then many we see.
Just wrong as it refers to the wrong CPZ... that cannot be ignored and must be used. if not now then later.

IMO now is the right time, not with the purpose of antagonising them but simply to put firmly on the table that they cocked up and in doing so failed in a statutory duty.
If they do get upset, shame, in a way it would be better if they did and ignored it or sent one of the templates that says we do not need to consider further reps at this stage.
There is no duty on them to consider the same reps but the regulations are clear, reps are not restricted to a single item and must be considered.
In a case like this, we would not be asking them to consider the same as before but their error and the consequences.
It puts it on the table and once there cannot be removed.
Some councils will fold, others try to bluff it, I don't know which way Camden may go.
Also I cannot say is how much weight an adjudicator would put on it, especially if the council come back with Ooops, our bad, terribly sorry.
But to me it is a gross error that should not be ignored and should be used to our advantage.
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Neil B
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 23:38
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QUOTE (EHR @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 00:22) *
Neil B - The only stuff I chopped off the top of their rejection letter was my name/car reg/email address which I would have had to redact.
And that was all the pics they posted on their rejection letter. But I've just looked on their PCN challenge site and found one other pic, presumably of the sign - but it is illegible due to flare: Bad pic

Pretty sure there will have been a crucial date on there to, crucial given the settlement option offered.

What I really wanted to know was if Castlehaven was mentioned?

Show the pic; let us judge.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 07:46
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QUOTE (EHR @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 00:22) *
But what is this mad system where they have CPZ hours which are different to yellow line hours and different again to parking bay hours?



A yellow line can have its own timeplate regardless of the CPZ. This is common and often seen as here at the edge of a zone where there is a busy area. But the signs must be clear and in this case it's easy to be misled by driving past the the large CPZ entry signs. At least there should be a timeplate at each end of the line which I don't think there is here.

We had a big saga of a case a while ago where someone parked just past the CPZ sign and then walked back in the direction he came. But there was a timeplate on that bit of yellow line further in the other direction and not easy to spot.

Anyway, in your case you have the ridiculous mistake about the zone.
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EHR
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 07:54
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Morning all, thanks again for your excellent help

Here's the top of their rejection letter with my deets redacted: Camden rejection header
(yes Castlehaven was specified and the date of the letter was 15th Oct)

I did post a link to the flared pic of the sign, labelled: Bad pic but here it is again undisguised: https://ibb.co/F4MfzJ7

Let me know if any links don't work.

Best EHR
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hcandersen
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 09:30
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So the bottom line is that the OP was parked in a restricted street as shown by the intra- zone time plate?

If so, then the OP's question(assertion) 'Are Camden council committing fraud' is well off target.

It is essential that the actual restriction at the location is identified. We know there is a CPZ and its timings and we know that the OP was parked outside these. But stamfordman's point has to be resolved.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 09:34
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EHR
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:51
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I will go there in the next couple of days to see if there is a intra zone time plate.
If there is one it was not at all visible in the dark wet night.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:26
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QUOTE (EHR @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:51) *
I will go there in the next couple of days to see if there is a intra zone time plate.
If there is one it was not at all visible in the dark wet night.


I thnk it would be worth it and hold of on sending anything else (like my draft) until you do.

ATM we have two routes of attack.

One is inadequate signage, ie is that local sign adequate.
Council will always say it is and that it is the motorist's responsibility to check when they park.
Adjudicators often side with them unless we can find a gross error.
The assumption is often not that the sign could not be seen but that the motorist did not look.
At the moment, that is not in play and I see no reason to raise the question of the council now or at the Notice to Owner stage, let them bring it up.

The second is the total cock up on the rejection letter.
My immediate instinct was to hit them back on it immediately.
Thnking on it, it will do no harm to leave it and use it at Notice to Owner formal challenge stage.
May well be better.

If you do that, you will have to forgo the discount and risk full penalty.
I cannot guarantee a win but as long as we hit them with the failure to consider and that you weren't within that CPZ (but don't mention the local signage), we then have enough (or should) to persuade an adjudicator that had they considered properly, you would have checked the signs and quite possibly paid at discount.
But their failure to consider, to give totally incorrect information, led you into the situation where that option was barred.... etc etc.
This should work even, possibly especially if they reject a formal challenge by then bringing up the local sign.
And we can still argue inadequate at appeal as the local sign is "new" to us.

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EHR
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:44
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Thanks for everyone's help - all makes sense to me.
FYI the signage has definitely changed since the google streetview images as there are now parking bays in the section between Haven Street & Leybourne Road.
Should have some pics tomorrow.
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stamfordman
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 22:03
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Make sure you walk along the entire length of that yellow line.

is the zone entry as per this:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5420128,-...6384!8i8192

this is backstop info.
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EHR
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 18:51
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Hi again all, I have been and taken photos at night, so as to show how the signage appears to someone parking at the time that I did.
NB the Google Map Streetview is out of date.

As feared, there is a '7.30-midnight' intra-zone sign, attached to the lamp post just to the left (north) of the Hawley Arms, before the pavement juts out.

On the old street view it is on a post to the right of the traffic cone here: Googlemaps streetview

It looks to my eye like it applies to the the section of yellow line in front of the Hawley Arms running south towards Chalk Farm Road. It is much smaller than any other signage : intrazone sign

Heading left (north), towards where I was parked: First there is then a large car-size lump of pavement, perhaps a traffic calming measure.

After the pavement juts back in, there is a single car club bay with a large sign: Car Club sign

Then, adjacent to that is a Pay by phone bay, 4 cars long, with a sign which was suspended at the time, but which usually runs until 6.30pm. Paybyphone sign
The sign at the time looked like this: Suspension sign

Then there is the yellow line which I was parked on, adjacent to the suspended pay by phone bay.

There was then no sign on this section of yellow line, running from the pay bay phone bay all the way to the left (North) towards Hawley Road. There is a lamp post available but it has no sign: Empty Post


The CPZ does definitely tun until 6.30pm and is marked at the Chalk Farm Road entrance to Castlehaven street.
This signage is very bad because at night it is backlit by bright advert board, rendering it a sillhouette to any driver entering: Photo of CPZ

So what do you reckon? If it were to be raised, I would argue that the intrazone signage is very unclear, far too far away from where I was parked to apply, and in what appears to be a different parking rule section. Plus I wouldn't have walked in that direction to check for a yellow line sign.

However the point they have raised - that the CPZ runs until 11pm - is definitely wrong.

Thanks in advance for your ongoing help. EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 19:02
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DancingDad
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 19:08
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Haven't looked at the pictures but by your description, bombproof and 100% win.

Within a CPZ all lengths of road that are marked with a single yellow line match the restriction times shown on the entry boards.
If any single yellow has a differing restriction it must MUST have its own local sign.
They cannot rely on a sign on a different length of single yellow that is separated by parking bays from yours.
May as well rely on one in Liverpool
No sign on your line, no change to the common restriction, simples.
No need to argue distance or clarity, the challenge is simple, this is the line I was parked on, there is no local sign on it, the CPZ timings rule.

Keep those photos safe and mark off a map showing what is where.... or draw a sketch but a screen shot from google maps and a little time with Paint (or a pencil on a print out if old school) will help explain to anyone who needs it.

I'm back to thinking on another informal, much like my last draft but emphasising the above as needed.
But do that sketch first please
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