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PCN for parking in my own space
sye
post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 12:09
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Hi,

I received a PCN for parking in my designated space at my rented flat.

I have done some research and decided to get some further advice from yourselves before appealing the ticket. The PCN was from Premier Park for not displaying a permit. I have contacted the the management company requesting cancelation of the ticket in which i have the following response:

Thank you for your email.

If the PCN states the reason as ‘failing to display a permit’ then the company are within their right to issue the fine as your tenant admits the permit wasn’t correctly displayed but on the floor. The vehicle must be in the correct bay matching the number labelled on the floor and the permit. If not, the company will not know the vehicle owner has the right to park in that space.

I attach the parking scheme rules issued with the permit to owners and with the permits to the resident’s November 2019. Please see point 4 regarding ‘clear display’.

Please could you also make your tenant aware we didn’t hire Premier Park, Groundrate Property Management Co did. We are the managing agent for them. I know people often get this mixed up!


I have attached the rules that were sent from the management company when they sent new permits.

Im awaiting a copy of my tenancy agreement so i can check what it says in regards to parking and will post this asap but just looking for some additional advice.

PCN: https://gyazo.com/126b9addac4769f9c5e7dcd62c322131
Signage: https://gyazo.com/436644180c1957b454af412687276aa0
Rules: https://gyazo.com/826d5d704d119840bd6f0038236b3838

The carpark contains 3 signs, none on the entrance except "Residents Parking Only", i have had previous success with BPA over signage so is this sign valid?

Thanks in advance

EDIT:

Copied from my lease (search pdf file for "park" and copied all results):

1 designated parking, 1 Visitor parking , exclusions as per landlords lease

1.12 Not use the Parking (if Parking is specified in this Agreement) for any purpose other than for the storage of a
private motor car or motor bike without our written permission (which will not be unreasonably withheld).

1.25 Not park in any space not designated to you.

This post has been edited by sye: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 13:44
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post Thu, 20 Feb 2020 - 12:09
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sye
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:47
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:44) *
You can, but POPLA wont gibve two figs about a lease.
Do you have a POPLA code?


No i have not appealed to the PPC yet so no POPLA code, thought the MC might have helped a bit more before going through an appeal process. I have also complained to the BPA in regards to the signage as there is no signage on entrance to the site (not that im expecting much from that as im not sure residents carpark is bound be the exact rules in BPA guidelines but figured id try and cover all scenarios as a fallback)

This post has been edited by sye: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:49
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:48
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If youre outside of 28 days from issue they wont entertain an appeal either.
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sye
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:51
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:48) *
If youre outside of 28 days from issue they wont entertain an appeal either.


I believe its now at 15 days now since issue.

Also can you advise, is a "notice to hirer" applicable in this case? I was not sent one of these when the lease company transferred the liability over, the document posted in the OP was all that was received, isn't a notice hirer/keeper along with some other documents suppose to be sent out?

This post has been edited by sye: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:17
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 14:24
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QUOTE (sye @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 13:26) *
I don't feel im getting anywhere with the managment company, they are refusing to help here,

You can't just take no for an answer, they have an obligation to the residents and have failed at a number of levels on this.

Certainly appeal (post it here before doing do for a review) to get the POPLA code, but you have to be bullish with the MC, everything in writing, pointing out legal rights and also how they are interfering with peaceful enjoyment for which you can seek redress from them.

Remember they are letting someone else rent out your property for that persons gain, if it was your car you wouldn't be so laid back!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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sye
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 15:31
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Ok im going to poke the MC again, is this ok for a response?

As you are the managing agent who has an obligation to the residents I find it pretty ridiculous that you are allowing a resident to be chased for a charge for using a space which is assigned to me through the lease and you provide no help whatsoever in the matter, are you making money from these parking tickets?

There has been no loss to any party as a result of my parked car apart from the me who has been charged £100 for using my own space, again which is stated in my lease.

The regulations can not override what has already been granted. Any scheme that requires a lessee to enter into a contract to use what is granted is not permitted under a lease, under the principle grantor may not derogate from the grant.

You are allowing someone to rent out my parking space for that persons gain, and that person is gaining from the resident who has been granted the parking space, this is a total inconvenience and affects my right to peaceful enjoyment of my rented property, A situation which can easily be dealt with by yourself as you are responsible for your agents actions.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:11
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Be factual

As you are the managing agent you have an obligation to the residents, it is unconscionable that you are allowing a resident to be pursued for a charge for using a space which is assigned to them through their lease and you provide no help whatsoever in the matter. I am the Landholder for that space, neither you nor Premier Park are.

If it is believed there has been a breach of the terms of my lease then only the landowner has sufficient interest to take any action. Not you, not Premier Park.

The regulations can not override what has already been granted. Any scheme such as this cannot create a contract as neither you nor Premier Park can offer me something which I don't already have an absolute right to use, principle grantor may not derogate from the grant.

You are allowing Premier Park to rent out my parking space for their gain, Premier Park is gaining from the resident who has been granted the parking space, this is untenable and affects my right to peaceful enjoyment of my rented property, A situation which can easily be dealt with by yourself as you are responsible for your agent's actions.

In the event of my having to take action to defend my rights as granted by my lease you will be named as a co-defendant alongside Premier Park.


This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:13


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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sye
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 17:01
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 16:11) *
Be factual

As you are the managing agent you have an obligation to the residents, it is unconscionable that you are allowing a resident to be pursued for a charge for using a space which is assigned to them through their lease and you provide no help whatsoever in the matter. I am the Landholder for that space, neither you nor Premier Park are.

If it is believed there has been a breach of the terms of my lease then only the landowner has sufficient interest to take any action. Not you, not Premier Park.

The regulations can not override what has already been granted. Any scheme such as this cannot create a contract as neither you nor Premier Park can offer me something which I don't already have an absolute right to use, principle grantor may not derogate from the grant.

You are allowing Premier Park to rent out my parking space for their gain, Premier Park is gaining from the resident who has been granted the parking space, this is untenable and affects my right to peaceful enjoyment of my rented property, A situation which can easily be dealt with by yourself as you are responsible for your agent's actions.

In the event of my having to take action to defend my rights as granted by my lease you will be named as a co-defendant alongside Premier Park.



Thanks for this, just one question.

"If it is believed there has been a breach of the terms of my lease then only the landowner has sufficient interest to take any action. Not you, not Premier Park." - the response of the MC was to my landlord (not me directly), wouldn't this line only apply to the landlord who appears to have not included something in his tenants (me) lease?
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The Rookie
post Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 20:30
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Well if there was something in the Landlords lease he didn’t pass on to you that would be his liability.

You can leave that out though.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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sye
post Sun, 1 Mar 2020 - 22:17
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I'm drafting an appeal letter to PPC as a fallback, the management company have not replied to my previous email, however they have asked my landlord to contact the management company so he will be talking to them on Monday, not sure what the outcome will be.

The driver was issued with a parking charge while parked in a designated parking space linked to the flat. I believe that this ticket was issued unfairly. I am not liable for the amount payable because:

The resident of the property is granted 1 designated parking space and 1 visitor space, your images show the car was parked within the designated bay

The lease does not state that it is a requirement to display a permit, nor that a third party can implement a charging regime.

residents are granted through a lease a right to park at the site by the Landlord. Parking terms under a new and onerous 'permit/licence',
particularly one that compromises the Tenant’s right to park one vehicle by demanding a charge for "not displaying a permit" not provided for in the
Tenant’s lease, cannot be re-offered as a contract by a third party.

As the vehicle has parked in the same place consistently over the previous 6 months while displaying a permit I find it highly unlikely that any operators
have not seen the vehicle and know its a residents car. therefore Premier Park has breached the Data Protection Act by requesting my details from the DVLA.

There was insufficient signage. There was no sign at the entrance of the car park, in order to form a contact BPA code of practice states:

18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore,
as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have
a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car
park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some
minimum general principles and be in a standard format. The size of the sign must take into account the expected
speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is recommended that you follow Department for Transport
guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an entrance sign and more information about their use.
A standard form of entrance sign must be placed at the entrance to the parking area. There may be reasons why
this is impractical, for example:
• when there is no clearly defined car park entrance
• when the car park is very small
• at forecourts in front of shops and petrol filling stations
• at parking areas where general parking is not permitted

However the lease does not include any parking terms so a contract cannot be offered for something which is already granted through the lease

I enclose a photo of the entrance to the car park. It shows clearly that there was no sign about the parking charges.


This post has been edited by sye: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 13:31
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sye
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 12:02
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Management company talked to my landlord and explained that an appeal has to be sent over to Groundrate directors (they have the contract with the parking company) who they manage (appeals usually get denied) My landlord explained that he doesn't have anything in his lease stating about displaying a permit.

The management company advised to appeal through the PPC till the directors have an answer to my appeal. I'm going to submit an appeal to PPC today then take to POPLA, is there additional evidence i should i should request PPC to submit to POPLA?

As i received only a charge via post (no windscreen ticket) then the same charge sent once the hire company transferred liability - Should i have not been sent some NTH/NTK and some other documents as its a Hire car?

Thanks for your help in all this
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ostell
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 13:41
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Yes you should have a NTH of your very own, together with the docs.

Currently has the lease company sent you a copy of the NTK they received?
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sye
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 13:43
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 13:41) *
Yes you should have a NTH of your very own, together with the docs.

Currently has the lease company sent you a copy of the NTK they received?


The only document sent is linked in the OP, its just a parking charge letter, once liability was assigned to the hirer, the same document was sent with only change of personal details

This post has been edited by sye: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 13:44
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 11:34
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Meaning they failed para 13 and 14, which you will know from reading OTHe threads
YOu need to make it clear the permit was displayed AS A CONVENIENCE but never accepting any terms.
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sye
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 13:53
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Received this response to my appeal to the PPC

Do I name the driver here, would it be more suitable for the leaseholder of the space to take the case than the registered keeper? (I would rather the leaseholder deal with this from their perspective). What happens here, they will reject the appeal after the 20th regardless?

We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the vehicle.

We note your comments and must refer you to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 - Recovery of unpaid Parking Charges. This is available to view online at:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4

We now therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable postal address. If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN. This information should be provided by 20th March 2020. Please note, Premier Park Limited will not reply to any correspondence until after the above date, if the requested information is not provided.

If we do not receive this information by the date given, the registered keeper of the vehicle at the date of event will be held liable.

If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit [www.pcnpayments.com]www.pcnpayments.com

Please respond by return or by filling in the Transfer of Liability form on the reverse of the PCN and posting it to Premier Park, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG.


Thanks again
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 14:18
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Naming the driver
- removes POFA2012 protection from the keeper

but

- it may be easier to defend by an admitted driver

This choice is compeltely yours to make.
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ostell
post Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 21:19
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Or you could respond with something like:

I have received your response to my appeal. I am well aware of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 and by virtue of your failure to comply with this very act you are unable to transfer any liability to me. The act does not required me to identify the driver at the time.

They are threatening to hold the hire company liable but as the hire company have done what is required of them then it is not going to get very far.
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