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Refund after PATAS appeal
lionofthesouth
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 06:25
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On 20th May, my vehicle was towed from outside my property. I paid the £265 to get my car back. Appeal was refused, went to PATAS, who found in my favour.
They sent a letter dated 11th July saying that the refund should be issued without delay, and that any enquiries regarding payment of the refund should be made to the Enforcement Authority.

I have not heard anything from Camden Council so far. I did send an enquiry through their website. It was only after that I noticed that I should not use that method for Parking Ticket enquiries.But I cannot find any means of contacting them (electronically at least).Do I need to resort to pen and paper? If so, how long should I give them before contacting them?
It would be too much to expect them to pay me back as quickly as they took my vehicle I suspect.
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post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 06:25
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 08:31
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It's straightforward really, but first let's see PATAS's letter and leave in dates.
How are they supposed to pay you? If you paid by credit card, then I suppose they could reverse the transaction, but if not, then how could they refund you? Having said this, it's their obligation to contact you and find out, not you them (and this has nothing to do with parking regs, it's an established principle of law).

Anyway, post PATAS's letter and, assuming it's as you say, then we'll find the council website and establish their Director of Finance to whom you will write quoting PATAS's letter.

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lionofthesouth
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 08:57
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Here is the letter.
I have just noticed that it says Prince Of Wales Road N5 . It should be NW5.


Edit. When I add a jpg it doesnt seem to uplaod. Its less than 1mb in size, so well under the 1.95 mb limit


This post has been edited by lionofthesouth: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 08:59
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Enceladus
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 08:58
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In general with Camden you are probably better off posting a letter. However the likely issue here is that nobody has even read your email as yet. You are only now approaching the window where they get around to logging in correspondence.

You are also still in the 14 day window where Camden could apply for a review, extremely unlikely that they will. However I doubt whether any refund will be issued until that window has closed. Camden will have been electronically informed of your appeal outcome, in a consolidated report, on Friday evening the 11th July. In theory that is day 1 of 14, however the working practice will be that the clock starts on Monday the 14th as they will have skived off on Friday afternoon. Now there is nothing in law that says the council can withhold your refund whilst they decide on a review application etc. It's just that they will withhold as a matter of routine policy, despite the adjudicator's order.

When I had a similar situation recently, albeit one that had run on for several months, I resolved it by emailing a complaint, to PATAS, that the Enforcement Authorities's have failed to comply with the lawful order of the Adjudicator. I asked them to intervene and instruct the Enforcement Authority that they must comply immediately. I also asked them to demand from the council an explanation as to why the system had broken down and what measures the EA proposed to put in place to ensure this could not happen again. I copied the EA's chief executive officer and another senior executive and said so on the complaint. I got the money back very quickly but little in the line of explanation.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:00
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 08:58
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No letter attached.
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Enceladus
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:02
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OP. Please confirm that it is PATAS case 2140149171?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:06
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If you want to bring this to the attention of the council then complain to the council. Forget directing any correspondence to the 'Enforcement Authority' silo within the council. A complaint to the council would, when escalated to stage 3 ensure that the CE became aware. You would also copy all correspondence to the portfolio holders ( the senior councillors responsible for the conduct of parking services and financial propriety). If you've got the time and inclination to pursue this so that the spotlight of council procedures and values is focused on the independent republic of parking services, then I'm happy to help.
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Enceladus
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:33
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Legalities aside the real world situation is that you are unlikely to see anything happen before Monday the 28th July. And you can expect the refund any time within the following two weeks. The refund will be made to the card you used to pay in the first place. Now you might think that such timescales do not meet the definition of "without delay", but until a court or PATAS tells Camden something different that is what their working practice will tell them to do.

And who to complain to depends on whether you want your money promptly or a complaint pursued.
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StuartBu
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:43
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QUOTE (lionofthesouth @ Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 09:57) *
Here is the letter.
I have just noticed that it says Prince Of Wales Road N5 . It should be NW5.


Edit. When I add a jpg it doesnt seem to uplaod. Its less than 1mb in size, so well under the 1.95 mb limit


A lot of people report problems adding attachments to posts this way so better to use an external host like Photobucket and post the links that start and end with [IMG]
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Enceladus
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 11:43
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The attach function is not really intended for your purpose and is space limited. So if you need to post scanned documents or photos, please scrub them and host externally.

Scrubbed means to obscure or redact your name & address, vehicle reg and PCN number. Please leave everything else visible, in particular all dates, times, location and council info. Some judiciously placed bits of paper (Post-it notes are good) are ideal for obscuring if you can't be bothered to electronically edit your scans with Microsoft Paint or whatever.
Scan at the default 150 or 300dpi to JPEG (.jpg) format. Please don't attempt to manipulate the image size, let the forum software take care of that.
Create a free basic account on a 3rd party hosting site, I use http://tinypic.com with no issues but there are other choices. Log-in to the hosting service and upload your scans, images or photos and then copy and paste the provided 'IMG' links into your posts on here. Et voilà you scans will be visible on the forum. Easy as falling off a bike once you have done the first one.
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lionofthesouth
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 12:49
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Thanks for the advice. Will give it another week or so and then think about making contact(if they don't contact me first)
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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Mon, 21 Jul 2014 - 13:23
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You can use external hosting sites for this, to name a few Dropbox, Photobucket, ImageShack and Google Drive

Most only come with a small amount of storage but are free.

Dropbox and Photobucket provide 2GB of storage free. Google Drive provides 15GB of storage free. I don't use the others so don't know anything about them.
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lionofthesouth
post Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 12:32
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Received letter from Council. Will be receiving refund within 28 days
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Chaseman
post Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 13:53
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QUOTE (lionofthesouth @ Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 13:32) *
Received letter from Council. Will be receiving refund within 28 days


I don't call that "without delay". Check Camden's website re the complaints process and bung in a stage 1 complaint now to get the ball rolling.


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Enceladus
post Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 21:17
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Make a complaint to the council and then follow it through their escalation procedures. Then escalate to the local government ombudsman.

Your complaint is that the council have acted ultra-vires in that they have failed to comply with a lawful order from the independent adjudicator to refund your money "without delay". Demand an explanation as to why you have been subjected to such unreasonable delay. Also demand details of what systems and/or procedures they intend to put in place to ensure that such delays cannot happen again. Ask for £100 in compensation for time wasted and loss of access to your funds.

Member hcandersen offered to help you out with that. I suggest you take up his offer.

And make a complaint to PATAS. Tell them that Camden have failed to comply with the adjudicator XXXX's direction of dd/mm/yy to issue a refund 'without delay'. Ask them why Camden are apparently permitted to impugn the adjudicator's authority and to bring the enforcement system into disrepute? And ask them to demand from Camden an immediate refund and details of what systems and/or procedures Camden intend to put in place to ensure that such delays cannot happen again.

When I did the latter some months ago with another London borough, the complaint having been ignored, I got the money back pretty sharpish. Alas the appellant was not willing to pursue the matter further, since the money was refunded.
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Hippocrates
post Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 21:49
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Where does the decision state "without delay"?

Adjudicator: Gerald Styles
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and refund the penalty charge and the release charges paid.


IMO, better to write to PATAS, FAO Mr Styles and ask him to clarify a time period in which he expects the council to pay. This is not good enough.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 - 22:00


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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