PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

[NIP Wizard] Advice sought regarding mitigation & pleading guilty by post.
BB78
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 17:22
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2013
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M25 clockwise between Jct 5 and Clackett Lane Services
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Caught by the average speed cameras (SPECS 3) doing 77mph in the temporary 50mph limit for roadworks on the M25 between Jct 5 and Jct 7, paperwork says westbound between marker post 29/3+80A and marker post 30/7A, detection zone 1336 metres.
It was late on a Sunday night (10.15pm), it was a clear dry night, traffic was light and although the temporary limit was in place for roadworks no-one was working on the road.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 17:22:43 +0000

Advice sought regarding mitigation & pleading guilty by post.

Caught by the average speed cameras doing 77mph in the temporary 50mph limit on the M25 back in October and have now received a summons. I intend to plead guilty by post but I'm a bit worried/got a few questions about the letter of mitigation, is this a case of I'm looking at a ban unless I give the Court sufficient reason not to? and is this what the letter of mitigation is for?

My main objective (other than avoiding a ban) is to have them deal with it without me having to attend in person, the Court is a good 40 miles away and a pain to get to especially if there is a possibility of a ban but I also have a medical condition which is exacerbated by stress so really don't want to have to attend but I'm worried I won't say the right thing in mitigation or that I'll leave something out and I know I'm not good at being concise, should I write the mitigation myself or should I use one of the online services that offer to write it for you? Has anyone used them before?

I've read that the Court looks at your driver record and am wondering what this actually means, I've received fixed penalty points in the past but they have long since expired and been removed from my licence (several years ago) but do they remain on my record or does the Court only look at what is currently on your licence?

There's not a lot I can say about the offence other than traffic was light and it was a clear dry night so does it all come down to apologising profusely and giving my reasons not to be banned?


This post has been edited by BB78: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 17:26
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 17)
Advertisement
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 17:22
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 17:31
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



If you plead guilty by post then they will request your presence should they be considering a ban. They will almost certainly be considering one so they will probably adjourn for you to attend.



I wouldn't worry too much about the mitigation as you seem to have willfully ignored the limit on the basis of no workmen/light traffic/dry. Concentrate more on the impact - although you cannot put in an exceptional hardship plea (unless you are looking at 12 points) they would consider similar arguments -that is the impact on others rather than yourself. You would need to write that you are aware that a ban is possible but this would <insert impact to others here>.

The fine will be reduced by 33% for a guilty plea, costs around £85 and a victim's surcharge of 10% of the fine. You might be 'lucky' and they award 6 points.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 17:33


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
dawmdt
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 18:03
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,056
Joined: 7 Feb 2009
Member No.: 26,079



Just to add to JLC's comments, if they want to consider banning you they will require you to attend. However, if you plead guilty by post and you are matter number 18 of 50 they are dealing with that morning in a "traffic court" then it's entirely possible they'll just throw six points at it to close the matter so they can get on with the next one. Or they may just say "get him in" so they can close the matter that day and get on with it, but you may as well try. Make sure you include information about your income (the court should have supplied a means form) otherwise the court assumes a net income of £400/week when calculating your fine and if, like most of us, your income isn't that high the fine will be eye-watering.

If you do end up in court, go suited and booted, be contrite, polite and respectful. Just make yourself look and sound different to all the tracksuit wearing chavs they'll be dealing with all day, make it look as if you are out of place, don't like being in court and let the Mags believe you are unlikely to ever see the inside of a courtroom again. You won't get legal representation but the legal advisor will help you and guide you through the process. I've even seen the prosecutor help people with their mitigation when it's clear they're not dealing with one of their "usual customers".


--------------------
I am Not a Lawyer
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BB78
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 19:11
Post #4


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



On the contrary, I haven't ignored the limit based on no workmen present and wasn't stating that as a defence. I'm surprised I was so far over as I usually use cruise control but what can I say for whatever reason I didn't that night, it had been an emotional day, first time visiting family since the death of my father and I'd also had a call to say my boiler was leaking so was anxious to get home to see what damaged I faced, worrying about having no heat/hot water and how I would find the money to get it repaired - but again, not using this as a defence, as I said I'm pleading guilty.

I used the Magistrates' Court Penalty Guidelines and it said "Disqualification possible? Consider 7-56 days" that's why I'm asking questions about a ban, plus all the paperwork I've received says if you choose to plead guilty by post you do not need to attend court.
I'm on a low income and what I don't want is to be seen to have wasted their time or increased costs by them having me attend because I sent a letter of mitigation that (potentially) contains valid reasons for a ban not to be imposed but that doesn't get read in full beforehand because I've done it wrong or it contains too much other irrelevant stuff. I want to avoid having to attend Court if at all possible because it's the kind of situation I already know will be difficult for me (and I don't mean in terms of getting there) and will make my medical condition worse but I don't know how or even if I'm supposed to explain that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 19:43
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



A defence is only if you are pleading not guilty.

As I said, be careful of what you say as they could be construed as aggravating factors.

I would still try the written guilty plea and make them aware you know you could be banned but give the reasons why 6 points would be more appropriate - put your medical circumstances as reasons not to travel. The other option is to send representation but obviously won't be cost effective.

They may accept your reasons or they will want attendance (or rep).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BB78
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 21:01
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



And this is where I'm at, I don't want to say the wrong thing, don't want to miss something out and don't want to waffle on. All I can say about that night without making matters worse is that it was a clear dry night and traffic was light.

Is it a case of points & a fine or a ban or do you get fined regardless? And what's the impact of a ban (apart from the obvious)?
What I mean is, penalty points stay on your licence for 4 years, is that the same for a ban?
Is a ban considered the same as or worse than 6 penalty points in terms of insurance?
Is the loading the same or more if you get banned rather than points?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 21:18
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



Always a fine and then points or ban.

Points are active for totting for 3 years, can be removed from licence at 4 years but insurers often ask for 5 years...

Insurance will vary - although a short ban means no points it still has to be declared to the insurer. The length of the ban will impact the premium by varying levels - run some dummy quotes through some online engines to gauge.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AFCNEAL
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 21:22
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,226
Joined: 3 Sep 2007
Member No.: 13,453



I wouldn't fret until you know whether they're considering a ban?


--------------------
www.BMWEnthusiasts.co.uk
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BB78
post Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 21:28
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



Can't help it, this has got me tied in knots worrying about it, I struggle with writing letters and the like at the best of times let alone when my driving licence might be on the line. sad.gif

This post has been edited by BB78: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 - 21:29
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Wed, 12 Feb 2014 - 02:04
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,638
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



If you were to be disqualified it would be for a short period, 7 days would be proportionate, and many magistrates would feel that 6 points would be more effective in getting you to keep to the limit in future. You have two bites at the cherry by pleading G by post, the bench dealing with your written plea will either give you 6 points or say that you should attend court for disqualification to be considered. If they do ask you to attend, you will then be seeing another bench of three different magistrates, and they may decide 6 points is sufficient. We can help with the mitigation, but we need more details about the effect disqualification would have on you, with your medical condition, and more importantly the effect on other people if there is any.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BB78
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 03:16
Post #11


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 12 Feb 2014 - 02:04) *
If you were to be disqualified it would be for a short period, 7 days would be proportionate, and many magistrates would feel that 6 points would be more effective in getting you to keep to the limit in future.

OK being dumb now but I don't understand, are you saying they'd probably be looking at the lower end of the scale when/if it comes to a ban in which case they might consider 6 points a harsher and more appropriate punishment?

The thing I'm worried about with a ban, other than how I'd cope if it was much more than say 14 days, is the effect it'll have on my insurance, I know it'll go up if I get 6 points but I don't know if the loading is higher for a short ban or if it makes it more difficult getting insured. Jlc said you have to declare a ban when getting quotes but for how many years does it affect you? I'm worried a ban would see my insurance sky rocket to the point I can't afford it and if I couldn't afford to keep/run my car I'm screwed.

QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 12 Feb 2014 - 02:04) *
We can help with the mitigation, but we need more details about the effect disqualification would have on you, with your medical condition, and more importantly the effect on other people if there is any.


I'll try & tell you about my medical conditions whilst keeping it short but I've been trying all day & every version has been too long and that's what I'm worried about with my mitigation.

I can't show the impact on others because I'm single with no dependants but the impact on me would be great and harsh.

I am limited with how far I can walk because my knees are shot, as a knock on effect I also get a lot of pain in my hip and lower back to the point that it's just too painful to walk or stand anymore. My Doctors surgery, the supermarkets, town centre etc are all too far away anyway but even if they weren't I couldn't do the amount of walking necessary to cope without my licence.

I can't use public transport because I suffer badly with motion sickness and I can't take travel sickness tablets because they interact with my other medications. Yes I know you probably don't believe me & it sounds like an excuse but I'm not exaggerating, gods honest truth I get it really bad & it lasts for hours, I can't even be a front seat passenger anymore, buses, trains, taxis all set it off. I've tried herbal remedies, I've tried all the advice; facing the way I'm travelling, fresh air, ginger, acupressure wrist bands, nothing works. I went to the Docs about it a couple of years ago & was told there was nothing they could do so the way I cope is to always be the driver.

I am completely reliant on my car, I don't have any friends or family living nearby so don't have anyone that I can ask for help. DVLA suspended my licence when they investigated my medical conditions and without my licence I'm basically housebound, I can't get my shopping, I can't get to the Doctors, Dentist or any another kind of appointment, I can't collect my prescriptions...

The obvious answer I guess is to get a letter from the Doctor but I don't think I'd get one, they aren't very helpful or supportive at the best of times, I don't know if they even write letters for speeding offences.

Attending Court over 40 miles away when I can't drive there means travel sickness but I also suffer with IBS which is aggravated by stress and the main condition which will cause me difficulties is narcolepsy but this is also where I think I need to be careful what I say because although DVLA are aware and grant me my licence I don't want to say the wrong thing & risk losing it permanently. Under normal circumstances my medication is enough to control the symptoms but high stress triggers sleep attacks, makes it difficult for me to think clearly, follow and understand conversations/what's going or even follow what I'm saying. Attending Court means feeling sick, having that horrible feeling in my head, not being able to focus or concentrate thanks to travel sickness, excruciating stomach cramps and worse thanks to IBS and a day of struggling with my narcolepsy which will cause all sorts of problems. The stress and worry over writing this letter of mitigation is bad enough.

What I've written here basically is my mitigation but by trying to cut it down I don't think I've fully/properly explained myself, when they say keep your mitigation concise how short do they mean?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
IanJohnsonWS14
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 07:51
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 226
Joined: 2 Aug 2005
Member No.: 3,508



Using motion sickness will lead to the question "Why doesn't it affect you when you are driving"



--------------------
Speeding tickets, like lottery tickets, are a voluntary tax. You don't have to get them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AFCNEAL
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 07:55
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,226
Joined: 3 Sep 2007
Member No.: 13,453



No taxis where you live for essentials etc? For a couple of weeks tops?

Come on now - all this hardship and yet the effects of getting caught are catastrophic? Despite as told several times a ban is highly unlikely and even if there was it'd be for short period which you could plan/prepare for.

I'm out for this one..............don't believe it.


--------------------
www.BMWEnthusiasts.co.uk
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
AntonyMMM
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 08:01
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,346
Joined: 17 May 2010
Member No.: 37,614



Your mitigation is in your first post:

"It was late on a Sunday night (10.15pm), it was a clear dry night, traffic was light and although the temporary limit was in place for roadworks no-one was working on the road."

Stick with that, you have no other mitigation as far as I can see.

All the other stuff is an argument about why you should not be banned. That will only become relevant if you are required to appear because the court are considering banning you - which I think is VERY unlikely.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sgtdixie
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 11:16
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,529
Joined: 5 May 2011
From: UK
Member No.: 46,399



QUOTE
DVLA suspended my licence when they investigated my medical conditions


Says it all really. It may not be easy but you have done it before, and knowing the DVLA, for far longer than 14 days.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 11:19
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,638
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



I would suggest:

I very much regret that through momentary inattention I allowed my speed to exceed the temporary limit. All I can say in mitigation is that it was 10.15pm on a Sunday night, it was clear and dry, traffic was light and although the temporary limit was in place for roadworks, there was no one working on the road. The worry associated with this offending has really brought home to me how much I depend on being able to drive and I shall certainly be taking much more care in the future. I do hope that the court will feel able to deal with me without imposing any disqualification, as my personal circumstances and medical condition mean that I am effectively house-bound if I cannot drive.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 11:28
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



rolleyes.gif Go with Logician's wording. It may be sufficient for them to award 6 points. Even if they do adjourn and request presence a ban is not a certainty - points can still be issued but they would be considering a short ban. They may wish to consider the circumstances but cross that bridge should it come.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BB78
post Thu, 13 Feb 2014 - 23:37
Post #18


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 8 Feb 2014
Member No.: 68,610



Thank you Logician, you are a star! VERY much appreciated. angel7.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 11th December 2018 - 17:05
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.