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Mare st Ticket - non compliant sign, sign already ruled non compliant
d-evil
post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 20:52
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This is a follow on from http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=52829









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post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 20:52
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DancingDad
post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 21:31
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I thnk we can infer but what was the text in the formal reps ???

And we really need to get the PCN from the earlier thread.
As I noted on there, I'm less sure that the sign was the problem, I think it was the way the contravention was cited in relation to the sign that was driven past. the way the adjudicator phrased it suggests to me now that the contravention was cited as an S36 which doesn't include prohibitions on motor vehicles as used on that sign
And I'm not convinced the same applies here but not sure either way.

The photos they give hardly show the contravention either.... a map type warning sign with a car turning left, a car on a road, another of the directional sign, a car at a tee junction... and they look to be from two different cameras but can't read camera ID to be sure.

The NOR doesn't state any time period that you may take to appeal and offers a certianty of issuing a CC by using WILL.

Could you post the other pages of the PCN please
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d-evil
post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 22:06
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The first 2 images are the PCN mate, the whole of the PCN that was sent by post.

The last 3 is the NOR, all pages of it.

Unfortunately i didnt save the reps, it was informal reps i think as it was made before the initial discount period. They have not issued the NTO yet. The reps i made was VERY VERY similar to post 25 and 26 of the linked thread. I think i jumped the gun a bit there. Was too confident.

This post has been edited by d-evil: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 22:09
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DancingDad
post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 22:43
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No, thats a postal PCN that acts as an NTO
And that makes them formal reps
And the next stage appeal to adjudicator or pay or get a Charge Certificate.

It's issued under LLATA2003 and I'm not overly clued on them but I'd expect that the time for making representations would be shown..it isn't..and that there would have been representations pages..where errors often arise.
But if you haven't got them :-((

I assume the NOR did include the appeal forms for PATAS ?
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 23:09
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 18 Jan 2011 - 22:43) *
It's issued under LLATA2003 and I'm not overly clued on them but I'd expect that the time for making representations would be shown..it isn't..and that there would have been representations pages..where errors often arise.
But if you haven't got them :-((


Yes period missing but I suspect page missing. Is that what he is saying - i.e. sent in as reps?

-----
thre is another flaw I think. Statement on front - issue of charge certificate after the 28 day period (as described up to that point - DoN) -- too late for reps = UNTRUE.

Since the (currently missing) period to make reps begins day of service - issue of a Charge Cert does not make it too late to make reps. One of the nicer novelties of LLA 2003. To say it does is clearly prejudicial as it could easily make you believe it true and pay an unnecessary 150%.

-------
Also -- isn't that NoR missing a period in which to make an appeal to PATAS??? Only an inference from the period from payment but no clear dealine for appeal?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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d-evil
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 18:59
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Ah there was a yellow form for appeal to an adjudicator.
But in terms of letter, these are all the pages of the pcn (postal) and the reply from them.

Do i have anything to go by?

PS: this is on behalf of someone else so apologies for late reply as id need to get the info from him.
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 20:16
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QUOTE (d-evil @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 18:59) *
these are all the pages of the pcn


I think not.

yes - good stuff is arising but
a) we need to see everything and
b) you are going to have to get to grips with some technicalities.

-


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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d-evil
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 20:55
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 20:16) *
QUOTE (d-evil @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 18:59) *
these are all the pages of the pcn


I think not.

yes - good stuff is arising but
a) we need to see everything and
b) you are going to have to get to grips with some technicalities.

-



honestly lol i got the pcn and the envelope it came in. its one A4 paper, 2 sides. the first page with the pics and contravention and the details then turn over on the second side with how to pay. i dont think i came with an envelope to send postal payment but i will have to double check on that.

i will get the adjudication page. its an a3 paper folded in half like a booklet and they have filled some bits in. i'll get that uploaded asap.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:19
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Don't worry about the PATAS forms... they are a standard form and no mileage on them

We are used to seeing 4 page postal PCNs but I reckon the missing pages are the reps pages, which I assume you or the owner sent in with the formal reps.
For future, please don't...very least if it says you have to, get a copy.
Don't send anything you don't have a copy of.

Lecture over.
Have you or owner seen the Video ??
What are the numbers from all 4 photos ?? There should be camera IDs on them but I can't read them from the scans, you may be able to on the originals.

We need to try and work out what the contravention is created by.
Could you email Hackney tonight?
Ref PCN ????
Please supply by return email, so I may decide whether or not to pursue this further, an electronic copy of the relevant traffic order for the location including all schedules and amendments.
Date of change to the prohibition signs and what the change was. Ideally supported with work schedule or appropriate delivery notes or invoices (please blank price out).
As time is of the essence and is limited for time availble to pay or appeal and early response is required.

Don't ask for the video as they will only say the owner has to ask for that. But the owner can send a similar email specifically asking for video
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:33
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:19) *
We are used to seeing 4 page postal PCNs but I reckon the missing pages are the reps pages, which I assume you or the owner sent in with the formal reps.
For future, please don't...very least if it says you have to, get a copy.
Don't send anything you don't have a copy of.


Agreed but could he confirm that is what happened please!! If not then there is a serious failure evident.

--------------------

One to start with.
On the NoR

IMO they are required to tell you the period in which you may make an appeal to PATAS. I can't see that they do.

From the legislation -

Rejection of representations against penalty charge notice

3Where any representations are made under paragraph 1 above but the enforcing authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under sub-paragraph (7) of the said paragraph 1 (in this Schedule referred to as “the notice of rejection”) must—

(a)state that a charge certificate may be served under paragraph 5 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—

(i)the penalty charge is paid; or

(ii)the person on whom the notice is served appeals to a traffic adjudicator against the penalty charge; and

(b)describe in general terms the form and manner in which such an appeal must be made,

and may contain such other information as the enforcing authority consider appropriate.
Adjudication by traffic adjudicator

4(1)Where an enforcing authority serve a notice of rejection, the person who made the representations under paragraph 1 above in respect of which that notice was served may, before—

(a)the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of that notice; or

(b)such longer period as a traffic adjudicator may allow,


appeal to a traffic adjudicator against the decision of the enforcing authority.


I say IMO because para 3 gives the mandatory content of the NoR - and it isn't in para 3!! This is a peculiarity repeated through LLA 2003.
However, it is clear that you need to know so surely they must tell you the period as quoted (bolded by me) in para 4.

By not doing so they render the NoR and the enforcement process null and void IMO. (Actually I would say that the requirement to describe 'form and manner' means that they must tell you the period specifically).

-----------
More later.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:49
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Going back to the missing page.

IF it was sent in then can you urgently ask for a copy of the representations that you made. That should get us a copy back.

------------
The info we are missing is actually two fold, one part of which often gets forgotten.
The period in which you may make reps to Hackney in the first place. (Note - a different issue to the one I've explained above).

I'll explain in full if we get to see it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:53
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I'm in agreement on that Neil
Doesn't matter what act it is under there has to be certainty in an enforcement process that defines time periods for specific actions and allows continued enforcement in the form of new notices, increased penalties etc if those periods are not complied with.
And if you read 3(7)a again, you'll see that it does define the time period that must be shown and actions that must be taken else a CC will be issued.

The NOR fails 3(7)a and IMO this is critical.
Without stating what it must, not only does the NOR fail the law but also predjudices the recipient as they cannot be expect to know the time period and could, through no fault of their own, assume the wrong timing.
I think in respect of any claim that the time period is on the PATAS forms...they ain't the NOR, same as the Payment slip isn't the PCN

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:55
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:04
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 21:53) *
And if you read 3(7)a again, you'll see that it does define the time period that must be shown and actions that must be taken else a CC will be issued.

The NOR fails 3(7)a and IMO this is critical.


I hadn't got there yet! Like to do it bit by bit to let it sink in and find out if I'm wasting my time!

Prima facie I thought it did comply in describing a period befoe a CC would be issued - but a wrong one ('within' - again). I hadn't referred to that yet. I was more interested in there being no period in which reps must be made. joe public cannot be expected to know the relevance of a CC in relation to a failure to make reps.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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d-evil
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:12
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Aha! indeed you are right. The other page i remember correctly was sent with the original reps. I totally forgot about that one.

Video: Not seen the video
Camera ID: I can get that

I will email hackney tomorrow, will write up the email before i send it tho.

Ref PCN XXX

To whom it may concern,

Please supply by return email, so I may decide whether or not to pursue this further, an electronic copy of the relevant traffic order for the location including all schedules and amendments.
Date of change to the prohibition signs and what the change was. Ideally supported with work schedule or appropriate delivery notes or invoices (please blank price out).
As time is of the essence and is limited for time availble to pay or appeal and early response is required.
Also, please can you supply me with all pages of my representations made including the TFL form that was filed with the written representation.


Kind regards,

XXX

Is there anything else i need to add to this? Also, am i requesting the above under any legislation which i need to state t get their attention?

Also, they state that 120 pound is due, however they are being nice by reducing it to 60 because i sent the reps in early. But isnt it, if im not mistaken, their duty under the LLA act 2003 to provide this period for reps or am i just going on a tangent?


Also i cannot see an email address on there to send any enquiries to?

This post has been edited by d-evil: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:14
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DancingDad
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:13
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Gordon Bennet Neil, Yum slow tonight laugh.gif
To paraphrase 3(7)a says that a CC can be issued unless certain things are done in certain time
sub para i says pay.... or
Sub para ii which says appeal.

Put that together and they must not only show that you have 28 days to pay else a CC may be issued (they say will BTW) but also must say or appeal in 28 days

As you pointed out.. Paragraph 3 is what must be shown

Hadn't notiiced the within...must be slowing down myself :-)
You're right..ignore the within 14 days as the re-offer is optional but the within 28 days of the date of service of this notice is damnation.

@ D-evil.....yes to that email, no to adding anything else at this time..... don't forget to add an email address.
Not the TFL form BTW.... the representations form

email Info@hackney.gov.uk

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:23
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d-evil
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:24
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Ok i am sending this off now.

Ref PCN XXX

To whom it may concern,


Please supply by return email, so I may decide whether or not to pursue this further, an electronic copy of the relevant traffic order for the location including all schedules and amendments.
Date of change to the prohibition signs and what the change was. Ideally supported with work schedule or appropriate delivery notes or invoices (please blank price out).
As time is of the essence and is limited for time availble to pay or appeal and early response is required.
Also, please can you supply me with all pages of my representations made including the representations form that was filed with the written representation.


Kind regards,

XXX



PS: from google search i also gothis email address: parking@hackney.gov.uk

Will send it toboth email addresses to be on the safe side?

This post has been edited by d-evil: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:25
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:29
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:13) *
Gordon Bennet Neil, Yum slow tonight laugh.gif
To paraphrase 3(7)a says that a CC can be issued unless certain things are done in certain time
sub para i says pay.... or
Sub para ii which says appeal.

Put that together and they must not only show that you have 28 days to pay else a CC may be issued (they say will BTW) but also must say or appeal in 28 days

As you pointed out.. Paragraph 3 is what must be shown


Ahem? Apart from the 'midspeak' I shall ignore (I only understand pure Laaaarrrndun) you talk b**l*x Sir! EEEEEEE -- sry error, you speak with forked tongue Sir.

3 (a) I think you'll find not 3 (7)(a). Don't laugh I actually wnet looking for that which does not exist! laugh.gif

-

(This must be worrying the hellout of OP!!)
-


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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d-evil
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:33
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:29) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:13) *
Gordon Bennet Neil, Yum slow tonight laugh.gif
To paraphrase 3(7)a says that a CC can be issued unless certain things are done in certain time
sub para i says pay.... or
Sub para ii which says appeal.

Put that together and they must not only show that you have 28 days to pay else a CC may be issued (they say will BTW) but also must say or appeal in 28 days

As you pointed out.. Paragraph 3 is what must be shown


Ahem? Apart from the 'midspeak' I shall ignore (I only understand pure Laaaarrrndun) you talk b**l*x Sir! EEEEEEE -- sry error, you speak with forked tongue Sir.

3 (a) I think you'll find not 3 (7)(a). Don't laugh I actually wnet looking for that which does not exist! laugh.gif

-

(This must be worrying the hellout of OP!!)
-



I've had dealings with camden for years and years! comes with the territory. need to add hackney to the list now.

I did go looking for 3(7) and also para 5 for some reason.

PS: just doing this to help the uncle out. he has agreed to go the distance if required.

This post has been edited by d-evil: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:34
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DancingDad
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:42
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:29) *
..............3 (a) I think you'll find not 3 (7)(a). Don't laugh I actually wnet looking for that which does not exist! laugh.gif

-

(This must be worrying the hellout of OP!!)
-


Just testing wub.gif Sorry
But we're on same wavelength now and point is valid
They don't show period for appeal and 3(a)with 3(a)(ii) says they must

Which alone can damn the PCN and should IMO if it gets to PATAS
Add the Within and OP really should have nothing to worry about.

I'm sending a PM to Maikesh on original thread, this S36 thing is bugging the hell outa me.
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Neil B
post Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:47
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 19 Jan 2011 - 22:42) *
I'm sending a PM to Maikesh on original thread, this S36 thing is bugging the hell outa me.


Well, again just my opinion but could you ask him something please. To post the bldy docs from cases and make that a reqiurement of those he says he is helping!!!

This has always been a give and take forum IME and if he wants to maintain his 95% success rate then give a little back by having consideration for maintaining essential records for others' use! Like yrself I searched high and low for the fkn PCN in that thread!

rant over rolleyes.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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