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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 08:34
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Been looking at recent Tribunal cases and just want to vent some steam.

Can anyone see a vehicle prohibition sign here?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/St+John...33;4d-0.1676108

Oh yes, it's hidden behind the traffic light (nothing on the other side of the road):-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/St+John...33;4d-0.1676108

This poor soul got 12 x £130 penalty charges for driving down that road. All the same wording as below.

2180471817

This vehicle on the council's case at St John's Road failed to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle.

The appellant seeks to dispute liability for the charge on the ground that he entered St John's Road from Northcote Road signage at that junction not being in place.

I am satisfied noting the council's submissions on the point in its case summary as supported by its evidence of signage provided at category J that this prohibition was and is clearly and correctly signed the appellant passing such signage and I find this contravention proved.

I refuse the appeal.

The penalty payable is that sought by the council.

How an adjudicator can approve an aggregate penalty exceeding £1500 which is IMO excessive defeats me.

Mick

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post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 08:34
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stamfordman
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 08:39
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Shame they didn't get help here. As their name is public maybe we can contact them and ask them to ask for a review if not too late.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:16
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I doubt a review request would succeed as the adjudicator was entitled to make the finding of fact. An argument could be made that this should be continuing contravention, they were all within 8 days so likely before the service of the first PCN

Not the first time Harman has been a prat in these situations though


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Spandex
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 09:39
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In the interests of balance, the streetview position you've chosen is one where the sign is obscured, but is not the view the actual driver got from Northcote Road. If you place yourself approaching the junction from the correct direction, the road markings make it clear that you cannot go straight on (there are two lanes, marked with left and right turn arrows only. If you choose to ignore these, the sign becomes visible before entering St/ Johns Road.

So, I don't disagree that the placement of that specific sign is stupid and the lack of other signs on the approach to the junction doesn't help, but it's far from the only clue to drivers that they shouldn't be going down there.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 10:27
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I wasn't too upset about the signage although it's a contributing factor. I was more concerned that an excessive penalty was given without any recognition that-----it would be excessive! and that an adjudicator can rule, subject to the circumstances of the case, that a lower amount should be paid.

In all fairness I would have expected the adjudicator to consider continuous contraventions (as per PMB) and exorbitant penalty amounts.

Mick

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Steve_999
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:45
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Plus, of course, the "No Right Turn" sign on the traffic light. . . .


Though it is clearly very poor signage overall.


This post has been edited by Steve_999: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:48
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Spandex
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:54
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QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:45) *
Plus, of course, the "No Right Turn" sign on the traffic light. . . .

Well, that sign is for drivers approaching along Battersea Road, so on its own is not relevant for drivers coming from other directions.

I agree the penalty seems excessive, but as I was looking at the Streetview I was also thinking that missing the sign and road markings once is possibly forgivable... Missing them 12 times is starting to look like the driver was just ignoring them because they thought they were getting away with it - which does reduce my sympathy slightly. As we know from people posting on this forum, people often deliberately break the law, then suddenly become retrospectively outraged about signage when they get caught.

This post has been edited by Spandex: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:56
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I am Weasel
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:54) *
QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:45) *
Plus, of course, the "No Right Turn" sign on the traffic light. . . .

Well, that sign is for drivers approaching along Battersea Road, so on its own is not relevant for drivers coming from other directions.

I agree the penalty seems excessive, but as I was looking at the Streetview I was also thinking that missing the sign and road markings once is possibly forgivable... Missing them 12 times is starting to look like the driver was just ignoring them because they thought they were getting away with it - which does reduce my sympathy slightly. As we know from people posting on this forum, people often deliberately break the law, then suddenly become retrospectively outraged about signage when they get caught.


There is an equivalent "no left turn" sign on the traffic lights when approaching from the opposite direction
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DancingDad
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 12:23
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If the appellant said signage was missing and the adjudicator decided it wasn't, then the decision is the only one possible.
If the appellant said signage was inadequate and easily missed, then the result becomes more flexible as does the decision.
Plus as has been said, if the adjudicator decided that the appellant was not credible then again, full penalty likely to be applied.

Not to say we may have been able to improve reps but simply do not know the full story.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 12:35
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QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 11:45) *
Plus, of course, the "No Right Turn" sign on the traffic light. . . .


Though it is clearly very poor signage overall.


I would have been happy to make an argument re the signage on this, plus of course the continuing contravention and I also wonder, who is the enforcement authority on a red route?


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Irksome
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:53
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I've spotted this before as I live locally, and I cannot see how the adjudicator came to the conclusion that the contravention was signed adequately, its clearly not, the sign is hidden as shown in the streetview captures in this thread. Presumably the appelent failed to put forward a clear case; additionally the buses turning mostly block the entire junction in a constant stream.


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cp8759
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 15:14
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:53) *
Presumably the appelent failed to put forward a clear case

This, happens all the time.

I read recently of someone who pleaded guilty to driving while disqualified, so the court clerk looks at his driving record and it turns out he wasn't banned at all. So he asks him why he thought he was banned and his reply was along the lines of "the police told me I was". This sort of stuff happens all the time to people who have little to no understanding of the legal proceedings they are involved in.


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Churchmouse
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 17:12
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:53) *
I've spotted this before as I live locally, and I cannot see how the adjudicator came to the conclusion that the contravention was signed adequately, its clearly not, the sign is hidden as shown in the streetview captures in this thread. Presumably the appelent failed to put forward a clear case; additionally the buses turning mostly block the entire junction in a constant stream.

And if there is heavy traffic, arrows painted on the road could easily be obscured. I have never been to the junction in question, but I had to look three times at the GSV pics to even spot the (solitary) sign. Why isn't there another one on the side of the road drivers would be looking at?

--Churchmouse
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DancingDad
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 19:20
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:53) *
Presumably the appelent failed to put forward a clear case

This, happens all the time...…….


Absolutely
We see it all the time with people on the council forum.
Focus on the injustice or their perception of it, focus on the wisdom of the man in the pub who says....
Miss the critical bit or the way of going forward that stands a chance.
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big_mac
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 19:59
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 17:12) *
Why isn't there another one on the side of the road drivers would be looking at?

There used to be one, looks like it was removed around when they made it a 20 limit.
https://goo.gl/maps/c8oZRhNHSs52


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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 20:24
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 19:59) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 17:12) *
Why isn't there another one on the side of the road drivers would be looking at?

There used to be one, looks like it was removed around when they made it a 20 limit.
https://goo.gl/maps/c8oZRhNHSs52


Makes you wonder about the evidence the council adduced


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big_mac
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 20:56
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going further back, before they moved the traffic lights, the other one was visible as well
https://goo.gl/maps/QkgYcKiYp272
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Irksome
post Fri, 25 Jan 2019 - 13:06
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There have been quite a few changes to the scheme over the last 18 months ...


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PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

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