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speeding, am i stuffed
itsdutts
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 15:22
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this is going back to July so remembering exactly what has happened isn't straight forward. i was apparently speeding on the A66 on 18/07/2018 i received notification of this some time after. (not sure how long after but i think it was over a month) I forgot to respond to this and was given a reminder and extra time to respond to the reminder. i was late replying to this reminder. i replied saying i didn't believe i was speeding and that there equipment could be at fault and i would like to see the evidence against me and any evidence to show the camera was working correctly. I also said i couldn't be sure who was driving at the time as i had a co pilot with me and would need to ask him although it was probably me. I wrote this on the reminder form
Then i received a single justice notice dated 18/12/2018 saying i have been charged with two offenses speeding 50mph on the A66 at Kirby Thore an withholding the drivers name.
I think its average speed cameras along that stretch of road.
On Christmas eve i went online to plead not guilty to both offenses. I have now received a summons on referral to court. Im sure from the day of the offense to the day i got my notice it was well over a month can anybody advise on where i can get copy's off those notices from and advise on the way forward.
Or do i just change my plea
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post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 15:22
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southpaw82
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 15:30
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Any non-compliance by the police with the 14 day notice requirement (which is what I think you are alluding to) would only be a defence to the speeding charge. It would not be a defence to the failure to name charge.

You may be better off attending court and speaking to the prosecution and offering to plead guilty to the speeding if they withdraw the fail to name offence.


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Logician
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 15:36
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It is very unlikely there was a month's delay in sending you the NIP without good reason. If you are the registered keeper, get out the V5C and check that the address shown is your full current address and that the date at the bottom of page 2 next to the doc ref number is prior to the alleged offence date. If you are leasing the vehicle you are probably not the registered keeper, it will be the finance or leasing company.
There is no point in disputing the speed measured by average speed cameras, their method of operation means there is virtually no chance of the speed being incorrect.
Unless you were very much over the limit your best bet would be to attend the hearing, ask to see the prosecutor beforehand and offer to plead guilty to the two speeding offences provided the s.172 offence is dropped. You will still get 6 points but it will make less impact on your insurance premium.


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BertB
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:55
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:36) *
ask to see the prosecutor beforehand and offer to plead guilty to the two speeding offences provided the s.172 offence is dropped. You will still get 6 points but it will make less impact on your insurance premium.


Two speeding charges? The OP mentions two charges, speeding and FTF. 50/40 should result in 3pts only, assuming they do the deal.
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itsdutts
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:06
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ive been advised if i go guilty to the speeding charge then they normally drop the failing to name charge. also if they havn't notifyed me in time then the speeding charge isn't valid so the failing to name wont stand up. what i dont know is how do i get a copy of the first letter that they sent me so that i can check the date
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:24
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QUOTE (itsdutts @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:06) *
ive been advised if i go guilty to the speeding charge then they normally drop the failing to name charge. also if they havn't notifyed me in time then the speeding charge isn't valid so the failing to name wont stand up.

You have been advised incorrectly. The requirement to name the driver remains even if the NIP was 'late' - as SP advised in post #2.

Your choice is to either defend the s172 charge for failing to provide driver details OR perform the plea bargain (i.e. offering to plead guilty to the speeding charge if they drop the s172 charge)

Pleading guilty to speeding charge now does not guarantee they will drop the s172. It is possible to end up with 9 points.

QUOTE (itsdutts @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:06) *
what i dont know is how do i get a copy of the first letter that they sent me so that i can check the date

You could but it won't help you. Answer the questions in post #3.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:33


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:27
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QUOTE (BertB @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 16:36) *
ask to see the prosecutor beforehand and offer to plead guilty to the two speeding offences provided the s.172 offence is dropped. You will still get 6 points but it will make less impact on your insurance premium.
Two speeding charges? The OP mentions two charges, speeding and FTF. 50/40 should result in 3pts only, assuming they do the deal.


Quite right, I misread the post



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itsdutts
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 21:07
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I have been legally advised that if the speeding charge dosn't hold up then the refused to name the driver will be dropped. But first i have to find out the date i was notified if i can't prove i was notified to late then i will have to change my plea. could anybody tell me how i could find out where i need to go to get a copy of my first notification
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southpaw82
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 21:21
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“Dropped” is not the same as “cannot be convicted”, you do understand that?


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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 21:43
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QUOTE (itsdutts @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 21:07) *
I have been legally advised that if the speeding charge dosn't hold up then the refused to name the driver will be dropped. But first i have to find out the date i was notified if i can't prove i was notified to late then i will have to change my plea. could anybody tell me how i could find out where i need to go to get a copy of my first notification

You can ask, under part 8 of the criminal procedure rules, for "any written witness statement or exhibit that the prosecutor then has available and considers material to plea, or to the allocation of the case for trial, or to sentence”.


From what you've told us is that you have failed to comply with a s172 request. Defending that alone on the basis you did not know nor could identify who was driving after using reasonable diligence is likely to see you convicted. (6 points and fine around 150% of weekly earnings, costs over £300 and surcharge of 10% of the fine [min £30])

Even if the 1st NIP was late, this requirement stands. There's no defence in proving the NIP was late. I would actually doubt they failed to comply with the 14 day requirement but there are exceptions.

You are right that the prosecution are often 'happy' to drop the more serious charge if you offer to plead guilty to the speeding. But upon pleading guilty to it there's no challenge to the charge available, e.g. cameras not working correctly etc. ;in fact they cannot realistically convict the speeding unless you plead guilty to it - there's no mileage in proving the speed was incorrect.

If you were driving then the sensible way is to plead not guilty and then seek perform the plea bargain on the day of court.

How about answering the v5 questions as you may be barking up the wrong herring.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 21:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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itsdutts
post Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 19:07
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I can't rember the exact term that was used but i spoke to a solicitor who specializes in traffic offenses and he said if the speeding charge cannot be proven then the failing to name the driver would normally be dropped. well thats the gist of it. i was convinced over a month had passed before i received my notification that i had been speeding but now i have found the reminder and its about six weeks after the date i of the offense, so now i thinking i could be wrong but i would like to check just in case. the v5 is fine address is correct.
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 19:17
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QUOTE (itsdutts @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 17:06) *
ive been advised if i go guilty to the speeding charge then they normally drop the failing to name charge. also if they havn't notifyed me in time then the speeding charge isn't valid so the failing to name wont stand up. what i dont know is how do i get a copy of the first letter that they sent me so that i can check the date

If the matter goes to trial all the evidence will have to be disclosed to you, including the first NIP. However the advice you've been given is wrong, for the s172 request to be valid it is only necessary that a relevant offence (such as speeding) is alleged to have occurred, there is no requirement to prove that it had actually occurred, see subsection 2: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/172


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 20:47
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...notwithstanding the alleged offence more likely occurred anyway and the 1st notice was probably posted within time.

QUOTE (itsdutts @ Thu, 17 Jan 2019 - 19:07) *
the v5 is fine address is correct.

And the doc ref date?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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itsdutts
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 10:21
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Had to bite the bullet. I wrote to them saying i would be prepared to change my plea to guilty for the speeding if they would drop the failing to name the driver. about a week later i received a letter saying my licence had been endorsed with thee points and fined £140 with the addons that is £240. Could have been alot worse i suppose
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The Rookie
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 10:32
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Who was 'them'?

Yes it could have been a lot worse, by pleading guilty to the speeding with no guarantee of the S172 being dropped you could have ended up on 9 points.


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