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TRO and Bus Lanes legalities
plonka
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:00
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I would appreciate advice or knowledge of legalities.

I have a 10 seater vehicle, which can go into any bus lane (so long as it doesn't say local). I have been having a fight with my local council about this and they have eventually accepted that the legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/made clearly defines a bus as follows:-
“a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver.”

Also
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...ulation/23/made
which clearly states:-
“Bus lane” in the signs referred to in paragraph
(1) means a traffic lane reserved for—
(a)motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver);

In other words, the sign of a "BUS" on a bus lane automatically allows (so long as it doesn't say "local") any vehicle above 8+ passenger seats, or 9 passenger+1 driver, which is a minimum of 10 seats.


My question is as follows. The current TRO of the BUS LANE is one that is based on one created in 1997, prior to the legislation clarifying about the signage which can be found HERE , therefore in the TRO where it states who can use the Bus Lane, "a school bus. a stage carriage. a contract carriage or a works bus, any other vehicle constructed or adapted to carry 12 or more passengers", which would mean that a sign of a normal BUS which allows 8 or more passengers would mean that the signage is inadequate, as it is not in-line with their own TRO.

Would that invalidate the Bus Lane altogether?

This post has been edited by plonka: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 13:36
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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:19
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QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:06) *
...…..I find it strange to say that the council can create a TRO and then afterwards just fit it into the legislation and send a PCN as though it is a Bus Lane! This must be against any legal logic, besides for messing up and not using the correct terminology.
Not quite. Council created a TRO that fitted legislation at the time. More modern legislation provides the hooks that allow the TRO to still be valid.
QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:06) *
The other issue is, the question here is, is it a Bus Lane or just a TRO without the Bus Lane. The text, because it was messed up and doesnt include the right powers means that it is a legally enforceable document with the correct procedure . The PCN's need to be in line with the standard TRO contravention as empowered to the local councils. This one looks and acts like a duck, but the TRO one, not the bus lane one!

Not sure I understand the question.
The only thing I see wrong with the PCN is that it refers to Transport Act 2000 S144 which was repealed by TMA2004. But again will not invalidate the PCN as it is of minor consequence.
If you are saying that they cannot use a modern legislation PCN against an older TRO, just wrong, they can.


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plonka
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:51
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I wasn't saying that!

What I was trying to bring across was that the current TRO is valid, but not as a Bus Lane TRO. Why would it be changed to a bus lane TRO when its perfect the way it is? It can be properly implemented as a TRO, not a current Bus Lane

If there was bus lanes available to the Council at time of making the TRO, I can understand the logic to say that the Bus Lane legislation would "still" apply, however to embed something into something that wasnt there, and the TRO is still status quo, wouldn't make sense to me.

The use of "oh well just a mistake" would go into effect I imagine if the purpose of the TRO when created wouldn't have done the job it intended to.

I am saying since its a TRO not a Bus Lane TRO, its the wrong contravention on the PCN and wrong signage.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:04
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This amendment might make things clearer

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Bury/BC03B.pdf
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southpaw82
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:27
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QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:51) *
TRO is valid, but not as a Bus Lane TRO.

I am saying since its a TRO not a Bus Lane TRO

Still don’t understand what you mean by this. A TRO is a TRO.


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plonka
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:27) *
Still don’t understand what you mean by this. A TRO is a TRO.

There are different penalties. One for a standard contravention and one particular for Bus lane contravention, both created by a TRO.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:01
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QUOTE (plonka @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:32) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:27) *
Still don’t understand what you mean by this. A TRO is a TRO.

There are different penalties. One for a standard contravention and one particular for Bus lane contravention, both created by a TRO.


But penalties do not come from the TRO, they are set by the relevant legislation and sec of state (outside London)

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:04) *
This amendment might make things clearer

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Bury/BC03B.pdf


May as well say it before Plonka….. but it doesn't include the word bus or amend the definitions within the original rolleyes.gif


Does liberally sprinkle reserved bus lane throughout.
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