Private car sale gone bad |
Private car sale gone bad |
Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:29
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 378 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 Member No.: 30,955 |
Saw this over on another one of my forums...
https://www.t6forum.com/threads/private-sale-gone-bad.15451/ Short version, guy sold a car, after some time the engine died now new owner is chasing old owner for the repair or replacement of the engine.. Someone in the know can possibly give the lad some advice?? This post has been edited by fluff34567: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:39 |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:29
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Advertise here! |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:41
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:54
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Did he know the car was no good when he sold it?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:04
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 378 Joined: 6 Aug 2009 Member No.: 30,955 |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:41
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well then that would seem to be the end of that, unless he wants to make a voluntary contribution towards the new owner's bill.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 20:27
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Sold as seen is meaningless....... you can’t withhold material information or tell untruths and use that to get out of it.
However if he was honest when he sold the car he has no liability unless it was unsafe. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 21:03
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#7
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
Sold as seen is meaningless....... It's not meaningless - the seller is simply pointing out that they have no liability for defects they're not aware of (as long as they haven't done something daft like representing that it doesn't have any). Perhaps you mean that it has no effect on the buyer's rights? -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 21:32
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
What the others have said.
It all depends on the failure and ultimately what a court would decide on the likelihood of the seller concealing a known problem or otherwise knowingly selling dodgy goods. If I sold a car with plenty of life in the timing belt and it failed the next day.... ooops, I dodged a bullet and the buyer can swivel. If I sold the same car but with the belt past its due date, then it failed the next day, I would be shafted should it get to court. Unless I had told the buyer that the belt needed changing. Some things fail with no warning and no reasonable chance of the seller knowing about the immanent failure. Some sellers are dodgy and not above trying to conceal a bearing whine with thicker oil. And some buyers are as dodgy. Pays your money and takes your choice, generally, buy privately and you take on all the risk. |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 23:03
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 01:25
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Depends, if the buyer asks if the car has any known faults or problems or issues that might cause a mechanical failure and the seller falsely says "no not as far as I know", that would be a false representation would it not? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 09:46
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Depends, if the buyer asks if the car has any known faults or problems or issues that might cause a mechanical failure and the seller falsely says "no not as far as I know", that would be a false representation would it not? Also depends on what the seller knows or could reasonably be expected to know. Ask my missus about the timing belt and she'd show you the clock. So buy a car of her and she says I dunno she can do so and it can be accepted. Buy a car privately of someone who earns their living as a mechanic, they can't say the same -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 09:52
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Depends, if the buyer asks if the car has any known faults or problems or issues that might cause a mechanical failure and the seller falsely says "no not as far as I know", that would be a false representation would it not? I’m not talking about misrepresentation though, which is why I excluded it from the quote. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 09:57
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Sorry, bad wording that was meant to convey as if asked a relevant question. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 16:20
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Sorry, bad wording that was meant to convey as if asked a relevant question. So if the seller is asked then they have to answer? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:15
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
you can’t withhold material information or Has the law changed so much that a private seller is obliged to disclose information? Sorry, bad wording that was meant to convey as if asked a relevant question. So if the seller is asked then they have to answer? No rational buyer would buy a car if the seller refuses to confirm or deny that the car works ok, or doesn't have any known faults or issues. So while there might not be a statutory obligation on the seller to answer, for all practical purposes the seller cannot refuse to answer and expect to complete the sale. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:55
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#16
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
No rational buyer would buy a car if the seller refuses to confirm or deny that the car works ok, or doesn't have any known faults or issues. So while there might not be a statutory obligation on the seller to answer, for all practical purposes the seller cannot refuse to answer and expect to complete the sale. Really? What does "works OK" mean, and what second-hand car doesn't have some faults or issues? I would tell a prospective purchaser what my opinion was of whether it "works OK", but I'd never claim it's unequivocally OK, nor that any declared faults or issues were exhaustive - and I've sold quite a few cars privately over the years to seemingly rational buyers with no complaint. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 20:13
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
No rational buyer would buy a car if the seller refuses to confirm or deny that the car works ok, or doesn't have any known faults or issues. So while there might not be a statutory obligation on the seller to answer, for all practical purposes the seller cannot refuse to answer and expect to complete the sale. Really? What does "works OK" mean, and what second-hand car doesn't have some faults or issues? I would tell a prospective purchaser what my opinion was of whether it "works OK", but I'd never claim it's unequivocally OK, nor that any declared faults or issues were exhaustive - and I've sold quite a few cars privately over the years to seemingly rational buyers with no complaint. Let's say that the car has symptoms of a possible head gasket failure (dropping coolant levels, occasional white smoke in exhaust, nothing major but enough to make you suspect there's an issue) which you know about, and a somewhat naive buyer test drives it and doesn't realise, and before completing the purchase they ask Buyer: So tell me, does the car have any underlying issues I should know about? Anything likely to go seriously wrong in the near future? Fredd: Oh it works fine as far as I know. That IMO is a false representations and you'd be guilty of fraud. Very hard to prove, but fraud nonetheless. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 20:24
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
No rational buyer would buy a car if the seller refuses to confirm or deny that the car works ok, or doesn't have any known faults or issues. So while there might not be a statutory obligation on the seller to answer, for all practical purposes the seller cannot refuse to answer and expect to complete the sale. Really? What does "works OK" mean, and what second-hand car doesn't have some faults or issues? I would tell a prospective purchaser what my opinion was of whether it "works OK", but I'd never claim it's unequivocally OK, nor that any declared faults or issues were exhaustive - and I've sold quite a few cars privately over the years to seemingly rational buyers with no complaint. Let's say that the car has symptoms of a possible head gasket failure (dropping coolant levels, occasional white smoke in exhaust, nothing major but enough to make you suspect there's an issue) which you know about, and a somewhat naive buyer test drives it and doesn't realise, and before completing the purchase they ask Buyer: So tell me, does the car have any underlying issues I should know about? Anything likely to go seriously wrong in the near future? Fredd: Oh it works fine as far as I know. That IMO is a false representations and you'd be guilty of fraud. Very hard to prove, but fraud nonetheless. In fredds case it might be so, but what if it was my missus. She says its fine it runs well, that isn't coz she does not know and there could be no reasonable expectation that she would -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 20:25
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#19
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
That's a completely different scenario from the one you posited, as you well know.
So you tell me, when selling any second-hand car would you be stupid enough to give a definitive answer to the questions "So tell me, does the car have any underlying issues I should know about? Anything likely to go seriously wrong in the near future?"? I wouldn't. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 07:51
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,570 Joined: 13 May 2010 Member No.: 37,524 |
The one thing we dont know is what actually happened to cause the engine to fail. Suppose it was the timing belt and it had been replaced at the appropriate time, then what?
It could have been the water pump which seized without any warning and if its driven by the timing belt, that could wreck the engine. Its an 11 year old car, All sorts of things could have caused the engine to fail. A con rod could have cracked, how on earth would anyone know that's about to happen. Personally, I'd tell him that the failure was totally unforeseen and could never have been predicted and that you are under no legal obligation to help foot the bill. |
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