Multiple invoices for same offence, POPLA not helpful |
Multiple invoices for same offence, POPLA not helpful |
Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 08:44
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,334 |
Hi, I am looking for any help or guidance. The issue is around a permit for my parking space.
The permit had gradually slid down on the windscreen and was not fully visible. I received via the post 10 invoices for the same offence of not parking with a visible permit on the same day. I appealed to Minster Baywatch who sign posted me to POPLA The POPLA system does not take into account the multiple invoices and my appeal failed I have now been hit with increased charges x 10 which is grossly unfair If I do not pay the fine it will incur further additional costs along with threats of enforcement I am considering my options before proceeding any help will be gratefully received. This post has been edited by hounded parker: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 08:59 |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 08:44
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 08:47
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Invoices not fines.
What does your lease say about parking? If its your own space why do you have to pay Mincer to park there? If you owed nothing in the first place you can't incur additional charges for not paying that nothing. You clearly have no understanding of private parking controls and mistake it for a reputable industry, read up via a few other threads on here to understand what you are dealing with. Each appeal has to be done separately via POPLA< you can't merge cases. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:02
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Indeed, you had ot appeal 10 times to MB and get 10 POPLA codes.
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:11
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#4
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,334 |
Thanks for the info, sorry for the wrong terminology I have amended to state invoice
We have communal parking and I have a parking bay permit The lease says the permit needs to be fully visible. I accept this was an oversight I never noticed my error the issue is the 10 invoices received in the post on the same day and no reasonable time given to move the permit back up 5 centimetres to full visibility before further invoices I did indeed do 10 POPLA appeals and had to try and link the appeals but it did not take into account the issue of 10 invoices received on the same day for the same issue This post has been edited by hounded parker: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:19 |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:13
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,985 Joined: 20 Aug 2008 Member No.: 21,992 |
How is it 'your' parking space?
Freehold? Leasehold? Tenancy? Have you paid anything for the parking permit or signed any bits of paper in relation to it? -------------------- Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:22
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
If the lease says you must display a permit, does it specify a penalty if you don't? if not its a matter between you and the landlord (who could sue for breach of contract for the failure to display) and nothing to do with the mincers.
EXACT wording please and as MR asks your exact relationship to the land owner. So not 'my parking space' as per your first post, but 'a parking space I'm permitted to use'. Were the 10 invoices for one parking event? If so then unless the lease says 'penalty per day' you could only ever owe for one breach anyway. A photo of Mincer's signs please as well. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:26
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Pictures of signs would be useful.
It is almost certain a court claim will follow. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:27
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#8
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,334 |
How is it 'your' parking space? Freehold? Leasehold? Tenancy? Have you paid anything for the parking permit or signed any bits of paper in relation to it? its part of the tenancy for the property and the land owner uses MB to manage the parking. I have written to the land owner as well to no avail |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:30
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Be explicit
Is it demised? It is exclusive? |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:33
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#10
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,334 |
If the lease says you must display a permit, does it specify a penalty if you don't? if not its a matter between you and the landlord (who could sue for breach of contract for the failure to display) and nothing to do with the mincers. EXACT wording please and as MR asks your exact relationship to the land owner. So not 'my parking space' as per your first post, but 'a parking space I'm permitted to use'. Were the 10 invoices for one parking event? If so then unless the lease says 'penalty per day' you could only ever owe for one breach anyway. A photo of Mincer's signs please as well. The parking space is marked with the property number and is designated to me as the property owner for my permitted vehicle The invoices were for different events on different days, but all received via the post on the same day I will get pictures ... thanks |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:34
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
We need the exact wording. if you dont tell us the exact wording we are stuck.
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:35
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
You need to be a lot more concise here, is your landlord the land owner or is he the owner of the flat by lease/freehold and there is a separate owner?
Is there a managing agent involved at all? -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 10:26
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
POPLA will always reject appeals in this situation
It's only interested in whether the PCN was issued correctly - was there a sign and was the permit completely visible It's confirmed to me that considering legal arguments - whether the payment is actually owed - is outside its remit and a matter for a cour I don't know if this was the original intention or a situation forced on the current service provider The original POPLA service provider employed legally qualified assessors The new provider doesn't and regards it as an advantage to have diversity This completely misses the point that the whole purpose of POPLA is to provide certainty It can only do that if its decisions are the same as a court would reach on the same facts |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 13:12
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,053 Joined: 20 May 2013 Member No.: 62,052 |
For the avoidance if doubt, do the 10 invoices have 10 consecutive dates of "offence" (i.e. one per day), as opposed to them all being for an "offence" that occurred on one day?
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 15:00
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#15
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 22 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,368 |
I'm experiencing charges for the same offence, though slightly different background. My permit had expired and I had not been sent a new one and had no information on how to get a new one, even though I was continually paying for the place via a license agreement. I have appealed to POPLA but am expecting rejection.
I got a bit of legal advice and know I have two options 1) Pay up 2) Do not pay and if they pursue it in court, state my case. If I lose I would be an extra £80 worse off on top of the charges One of the arguments we can fall on is that there they suffered no loss of earnings. The likely counter arguments is the Beavis principle, but that states that the parking enforcement has a commercial justification for charges - as in the Beavis case where the case was about overstaying and preventing unfair use of the parking by customers. But the counter-argument to that is, that in this case there is no commercial justification - permits had been obtained and paid for, so there is no loss and no potential loss by others doing the same. As a result of there not being a commercial justification, it would be an unreasonable penalty which is a breach of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and therefore unenforceable. However, this is secondhand advice from me not knowing the law well, so definitely don't rely on this without hearing it from someone who knows more what they are talking about. |
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 15:11
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,640 Joined: 30 May 2013 Member No.: 62,328 |
Was it one parking event and the car was not used for a fortnight?
Is your landlord an individual owner of a flat or the landlord of a block of flats? Contact the dvla and ask how many times your details have been requested -------------------- The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk.
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Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 15:46
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
UTCCR hasnt been current for 4 years. CRA2015.
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