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Resident parking permit expired - Help!, Ticketed outside my house!
t_ro
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:38
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Hi all,

I've been reading through various post and am not sure how to structure my appeal after.

The fine

My house is near a stadium where on event days (that are posted) have restricted parking, residents have a virtual permits that apparently expire after 3 years. Mine had apparently expired! I was given a ticket when talking to the wardens they told me to appeal with proof of residence and the ticket would most likely be dropped. I did was told and the letter back effectively stated it's up to the resident to reapply when the email reminder is sent and touch luck!

Now this seems unreasonable, being ticketed right outside my house even when I proved I am a valid resident. Any help or advice you could give would be of great help!

Next steps: the PCN challenge

So looking at typical challenges I believe can't claim the bay was unmarked or the signage was inadequate the ticket was for an invalid permit and the signs are regularly updated for event days.

I plan to argue that an email to 3 year old email address which is no longer active meaning a contract wasn't formed. Also there is no mention of a "virtual permit" requiring renewal after 3 years when the permit was first applied for.

I can go into more emotional stuff like it being a hindrance to residents but that doesn't seem to make a difference in these things.
Anything either suggestions or any templates anyone can offer would be great, thanks in advance.
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post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:38
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stamfordman
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:43
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Post PCN, your challenge and their rejection.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com and post BBcode embed links.

is this Twickenham?

Council is clearly being unreasonable.
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John U.K.
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:48
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As usual, for best advice post up here all sides of the PCN, all correspondence to and from the Council, and GSV(Google Street View ) link to the location.Try this:

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr (where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing), https://imgbb.com/ (highly recommended by Stamfordman) and imgur, which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.


Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 18:21
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Point of order - the reason I recommend https://imgbb.com is that it's easy to use and, importantly, any of us can grab the BBcode to post inline pics if you can't work it out. Tinypic and others do this too but I'm allergic to sites that display ads and foul up my browser. https://imgbb.com is about as minimally clean as it gets for just pics. Video is a different matter.

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t_ro
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 22:52
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Hi thanks for the quick replies. This is in Coventry I have the PCN and response from the challenge below.

Original PCN


Challenge
I will try and find the challenge itself but don't think I kept it, showed my proof of residence, vehicle details and detailed how there must be a mistake as my vehicle hadn't been found on their record.


Response to challenge




Google images
Parking spot


Signage


I have edited the details let me know if I have got rid of too much. Thanks in advance.
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peterguk
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 23:04
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You've removed too much info. from the PCN.

Repost, redacting only VRM and PCN number.


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t_ro
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 09:26
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Apologies please see information below.

PCN



Response to challenge





Please let me now if you need anymore information. Thanks
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 10:19
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If you can show that there was no mention of expiry when you took the permit out then that could win. Is the permit free?

You can also try reminding them of government fairness guidance - the idea of the zone is not to penalise residents.
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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 12:55
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I don't recognise the sign, is it a TSRGD sign or do Coventry have special dispensation for it?


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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 12:55) *
I don't recognise the sign, is it a TSRGD sign or do Coventry have special dispensation for it?



They need asking, without the blue and white P it cannot be TSRGD


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t_ro
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 17:26
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Yes think that's the best way forward mentioning lack of information around the expiry, yes up to three permits per household are free. Any information on the government fairness guideline such as policy number etc?

I think those are Coventry signs showing event days. There are restrictions shown on signs and on parking in the road as to not block crossings with double yellow lines and enforcing parking in bays the signs as below




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cp8759
post Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:04
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QUOTE (t_ro @ Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 17:26) *
Yes think that's the best way forward mentioning lack of information around the expiry, yes up to three permits per household are free. Any information on the government fairness guideline such as policy number etc?

I think those are Coventry signs showing event days. There are restrictions shown on signs and on parking in the road as to not block crossings with double yellow lines and enforcing parking in bays the signs as below

There are only two types of enforceable signs in the UK, either signs which are authorised under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made), or signs that have been authorised by the Secretary of State under section 64 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, many (but not all) of these are listed at http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/

The "Area A B" sign you posted is not found in the TSRGD 2016, so unless they have special authorisation from the Secretary of State, it is not a contravention to ignore it. So you need to ask them whether they have authorisation from the SoS for the sign, or whether they're relying on the TSRGD. Ultimately if the sign is one of their own invention, and they have no authorisation for it, then they cannot enforce the PCN no matter what.

The other signs you posted, while contradictory / confusing, do not appear to relate to the place where you were parked, so they don't really help.

I'd forget about the whole fairness angle, it's very unlikely a PCN would ever be cancelled at the tribunal based on the perceived unfairness of a permit system. Unless the council made it impossible (or virtually impossible) for you to get a permit, this argument is a waste of effort.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 - 18:05


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t_ro
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 11:22
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Thanks cp8759, what would you say is the best way to ask or find out if they have authorisation from the Secretary of State to enforce with the current signage?

This would be a good way to say the PCN isn't valid as there is no notice/contract made.

The only other point I had was no material telling me I had to renew after 3 years apart from an e-mail. Is there any precedence set about an e-mail not being a valid form of notification, it links to an account through mipermit to order the permit, however no letter sent through the door. This email account isn't current could have easily been forwarded in to junk mail or a spam folder etc?
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stamfordman
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 11:45
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You haven't said if you were made aware that the permit expired after 3 years when you got it.

Councils have no obligation to let you know when permits expire but if they say they are going to do something you can hold them to it.

I would include several points in your appeal should you want to go on including the fairness angle - it makes no sense to pursue a penalty for a free permit to a resident.

The sign though looks like a strong point.





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t_ro
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 12:42
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 12:45) *
You haven't said if you were made aware that the permit expired after 3 years when you got it.

Councils have no obligation to let you know when permits expire but if they say they are going to do something you can hold them to it.


From when I originally got the permit I can't recall the 3 years age limit I have tried looking at evidence all I can find is a receipt from another vehicle in the household and there is no mention of it below.



However looking at the latest permit there is a record of it when I log in to check. but nothing I can definitely check of the 2015-2018 to tell me!
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (t_ro @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 11:22) *
Thanks cp8759, what would you say is the best way to ask or find out if they have authorisation from the Secretary of State to enforce with the current signage?

In your reps, simply assert that the signs are not authorised under the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 and put it to them that if they refuse your challenge, they must produce a copy of the authorisation issued by the Secretary of State for Transport. If they reject they'll need to come back with something.


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hcandersen
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 18:07
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Right, left, right, left...

C'mon.

You live there, you know you need a permit - you just apparently forgot yours had expired; you want to attribute blame to the authority because they might have an out-of-date email(and how would they update this if you don't tell them); you know the Ts and Cs of the permit you had and for all we know these could be absolutely clear on the allocation of responsibilities and place these firmly with you.

So we have a possibly non-substantially compliant sign but a holder who lives inside the zone and should know the ropes. I'd therefore set my expectations suitably low.
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t_ro
post Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 23:05
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 19:07) *
Right, left, right, left...

C'mon.

You live there, you know you need a permit - you just apparently forgot yours had expired; you want to attribute blame to the authority because they might have an out-of-date email(and how would they update this if you don't tell them); you know the Ts and Cs of the permit you had and for all we know these could be absolutely clear on the allocation of responsibilities and place these firmly with you.

So we have a possibly non-substantially compliant sign but a holder who lives inside the zone and should know the ropes. I'd therefore set my expectations suitably low.


Agree that there is no massive injustice but at the same time it's not the first time. Previously before the online permits there were windscreen stickers that had an expiry but we were told to display even when they had expired. Now suddenly there is an expiry to the permit, I can only track this if were communicated. Where the permit is tied to the residence not to an email which I must say isn't a concrete form of communication.

If a notice can be served to me in the post I don't see why permit information can't. Maybe legally this is a stupid argument however I think that the information and terms should be clear and yes the resident should know the conditions.
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 18:46
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 29 Oct 2018 - 18:07) *
So we have a possibly non-substantially compliant sign but a holder who lives inside the zone and should know the ropes. I'd therefore set my expectations suitably low.

For motoring offences / contraventions it's been repeatedly held that the subjective knowledge of a particular motorist is irrelevant. This works both ways, if a notional diligent motorist wouldn't have been bound by the non-compliant sign, the fact that the OP has lived there for years changes nothing.


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phantomcrusader
post Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 19:08
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I' say the contravention did not occur. The council don't issue physical permits so you have never been given an actual permit to display. Perhaps this is more appropriate

11
Parked without payment of the parking charge.

The charge being the permit fee. I'd also look into their TRO to see how they word it about virtual permits.
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