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UK CPM ticket when moving house
Sheep Sardine
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 14:50
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Hi all,

The removal firm I used to move house with recently received a parking ticket on their van while we were packing it. Apparently the person that wrote the ticket waited for the removal guy to head inside, at which point he put the ticket on the window and walked away.

Note:

No visitor bays available (only 8 of which are available for roughly 250+ properties)
Close access to flat entrance needed as carrying heavy items
We were obstructing 2 parking bays, which aren't being used and I checked with owners before hand anyway

We weren't blocking in any cars, no safety issues etc

This is the 4th ticket I've received in a year here, though the last 3 were friends parking when no visitor bays available (got ticketed at 12PM at night once!)

Could someone please point me in the correct direction to help dispute it? Not entirely sure what they expected me to do - it's a moving van, so it wouldn't have even fit in a space.

It's a private company - CPM

There are signs up that say no parking outside of a bay, however when moving house, what choice is there?

Kind regards,
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post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 14:50
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Jlc
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:12
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They won't accept any appeal because they don't have to.

Isn't this the moving firm's issue though rather than yours? When PCM issue a claim it will be against the company?

But... Jopson v Homeguard is the go to reference for similar situations, paragraph 21 being most relevant:

QUOTE
Whether a car is parked, or simply stopped, or left for a moment while
unloading, or (to take an example discussed in argument) accompanying a
frail person inside, must be a question of fact or degree. I think in the end this
was agreed. A milkman leaving his float to carry bottles to the flat would not
be “parked”. Nor would a postman delivering letters, a wine merchant
delivering a case of wine, and nor, I am satisfied, a retailer’s van, or indeed
the appellant, unloading an awkward piece of furniture. Any other approach
would leave life in the block of flats close to unworkable,
a consideration
which those instructing Miss Fenwick seemed reluctant to accept. I am quite
satisfied, and I find as a fact, that while the appellant’s car had been stationary
for more than a minute and without its driver for the same period (whatever
precisely it was), while she carried in her desk, it was not “parked”.
Accordingly, for that reason too, the appellant was not liable to the charge
stipulated in the respondent’s notice.


...slightly different circumstances though as the defendant was a lessee. (The moving firm have no direct relationship with any lease)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:13


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:12
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Jopson v Homeguard covers this exactly
Sue the company.
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Jlc
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:13
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:12) *
Jopson v Homeguard covers this exactly
Sue the company.

Does appear to be 'exactly' but...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Sheep Sardine
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:21
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Seems rather similar.

It is ultimately their responsibility to deal with it, but I wanted to give them some information on how to do so appropriately.

There are two entrances to the building - we used the smaller rear entrance as to avoid blocking necessary areas.


I've just spoken to CPM to ask what I should do in the future, and their reply was that I should have rang them to ask for a temporary permit, however they were closed on the day I moved, making this impossible unless I knew this before hand; it doesn't state this is necessary on the sign, but it does say if I'm unsure I should call an 0845 number.

Importantly, I'm due to appeal this online, and when unsuccessful, will use the IAS and then POPLA - is this the correct course of action?

I myself am about to begin my final year of university, and so don't have the time or mental capacity to deal with this personally, but will offer this advice to the moving company.
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ostell
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:48
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You use the IAS or POPLA depending on which trade association they belong to. POPLA is BPA, IAS is the IPC. not recommended to appeal to the IAS as it will be rejected.

If thus is a hidden condition on the sign then you are possibly not liable as you were not made aware of all the conditions at the time.

Quote Jopson case to them. It was an appeal case and so Carrie's greater weight.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 15:52
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 07:54
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Have you read up on Jopson v Homeguard?
Itcovers this case utterly.
The vehicle was NEVER parked; loading and unloading IS NOT PARKIGN - this is settled in the TMA2004, and unless their signs *specifically* covered this case, then any issue about "parking" incorrectly are moot; the vehicle wasnt parked.
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Sheep Sardine
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 16:31
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 16:48) *
You use the IAS or POPLA depending on which trade association they belong to. POPLA is BPA, IAS is the IPC. not recommended to appeal to the IAS as it will be rejected.

If thus is a hidden condition on the sign then you are possibly not liable as you were not made aware of all the conditions at the time.

Quote Jopson case to them. It was an appeal case and so Carrie's greater weight.


UK CPM advise I should submit an appeal through IAS if (when) unsuccessful with CPM.

I'd also like to add that CPM are saying that the appeal is based on obstructing a parking bay, not actually parking; I assume this will get them around the Jopson case?
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Jlc
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 19:24
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QUOTE (Sheep Sardine @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 17:31) *
UK CPM advise I should submit an appeal through IAS if (when) unsuccessful with CPM.

Of course they will as they know they'll side with them...

QUOTE (Sheep Sardine @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 17:31) *
I'd also like to add that CPM are saying that the appeal is based on obstructing a parking bay, not actually parking; I assume this will get them around the Jopson case?

Does the PCN claim as such - and more importantly what does the signage say...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Sheep Sardine
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 16:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:24) *
Does the PCN claim as such - and more importantly what does the signage say...


It does, but I don't remember what the signs say as I no longer live in the area
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Jlc
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 17:12
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The signs are the important part. (The alleged ‘contract’)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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