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Lease company sending notice 60 days later, excuse 'fixed to windscreen'
blad4
post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:55
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Hi not sure if I am going about this right, but surely we have the right to wait for something to come in the post before we need to appeal? Because what if someone else was driving my car, or the ticket attached to the windscreen just was not there when the driver returned to the car?

So when I did receive the notice via email (not yet via post), I saw that the fine was actually issued 60 days earlier. I emailed back saying

Hi, in relation to the two emails I received on the 13th of this month, each outlining a parking fine, one of them is dated 60 days ago, and I have not received the notice in the post as of yet. After contacting the parking company, I can confirm I have missed the appeal deadline due to receiving it so late. I have looked into the laws and would not like to go any further if you are happy to accept that somewhere between yourselves and TNC Parking services the mistake was made. Below are the specifics of the email:

With the date and time being

17/08/2018 00:00

They responded with

The fine was originally fixed to the windscreen of the vehicle which would have allowed for this fine to be appealed. Please see a screen shot below of the section of the Parking Charge Notice that advises this:

TNC Parking services have obtained your... issued a parking charge notice which was fixed to the vehicle.. remains outstanding

Arval has written to the parking company and asked them to transfer liability of the fine to your address. It depends on the authority on how quickly they reissue the fine. Once you have received the fine in the post you can either pay or dispute it directly with the parking company.


Now there is no way they are getting my money, even the admin charge will get refunded. I'm just more curious as to the laws a process around this, whether I am incorrect etc
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post Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 17:55
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ostell
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 22:08
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Presuming there were no other documents with it then send that suggestion in post #4 so that it arrives on about day 19. This is so that they don't realise their mistake in time to send out a valid NTH within the relevant time.

Then get out the lease for your property and see what it actually says about parking and the requirements for permits etc and having to pay a third party stranger for any alleged transgressions of an alleged contract. You may want to raise a claim of your own against them for a breach of the DPA by requesting your personal details from the DVLA when they had no reason to do so. Say about £500?
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blad4
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 22:26
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 22:08) *
Presuming there were no other documents with it then send that suggestion in post #4 so that it arrives on about day 19. This is so that they don't realise their mistake in time to send out a valid NTH within the relevant time.

Then get out the lease for your property and see what it actually says about parking and the requirements for permits etc and having to pay a third party stranger for any alleged transgressions of an alleged contract. You may want to raise a claim of your own against them for a breach of the DPA by requesting your personal details from the DVLA when they had no reason to do so. Say about £500?


Yes I'd definitely like to do something like that.. but I am only a rental tenant, not a leaseholder. The tenancy doc is the only thing I have and does not include anything about the parking whatsoever, as I have read it over a few times since I moved in
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 08:12
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So how do you know that you have the right to park there?
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blad4
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 09:42
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They gave me a permit and the fob at concierge when I moved in.. I assumed it was allocated parking as in 1 bay per apartment in each block's underground, but then a year later I found out that all of the undergrounds were actually shared. Hence the permit system. It must be less effort for them and more money to just have a warden patrol 24-7, and the last appeal I did I recall them stating I 'entered a contract when entering those premises' due to the signage on the wall and all that nonsense
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ostell
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:27
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You do not need to enter into a contract for parking as you already have that right in the landlord's lease, or so it seems. Please find out the actual situation by contacting your landlord and asking aout the parking in his lease. But do send that letter I suggested. And don't talk to them.
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blad4
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:39
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:27) *
You do not need to enter into a contract for parking as you already have that right in the landlord's lease, or so it seems. Please find out the actual situation by contacting your landlord and asking aout the parking in his lease. But do send that letter I suggested. And don't talk to them.


Nice, yep I've asking the managing agent and she said there is a 'Right to Park' in the lease, but not an allocated bay. She is contacting the landlord to ask for the specific clause and from there I'll begin escalation

Many thanks also for the letter template, will be using that at the right time.
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blad4
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 13:50
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 11:27) *
You do not need to enter into a contract for parking as you already have that right in the landlord's lease, or so it seems. Please find out the actual situation by contacting your landlord and asking aout the parking in his lease. But do send that letter I suggested. And don't talk to them.


you were right about the clauses within the lease.. got hold of it:

A right for the Tenant for the use of the occupiers of the Premises to park a private motor car in a parking space within aeras designated from time by the landlord within the car park provided that:-

7.1
the landlord gives no warranty.. nor that there will always be .. immediately available..

7.2
not have the right to park in any particular space within the car park

7.3
the LL may temporarily either suspend the right to park or designate an lternative area within the Estaet for exercise of the right to parkin either case for limited periods of time (which shall be as short as reasonably practicable) during the term where necessary for the purposes of repair mantenance decoration replacement or renewal of the car park or any plant and equipment therein or any other works to the Estate or adjoining land.
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ostell
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:50
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So you send off that letter I suggested and then you take them to task, and the managing agents, about issuing parking charges when you have the right to park written into the lease. Your lease has primacy. The display of a permit is not intended to imply any contractual relationship between yourself and the parking company but merely an aid for the parking company's employees to recognise that the vehicle is entitled to park at that location.

You can also have a go at the managing agents to cancel any PCNs issued to residents.

Perhaps post up the Notice to Hirer suitably redacted so that we can see is there are other errors that they have made.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:56
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blad4
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 10:00
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:50) *
So you send off that letter I suggested and then you take them to task, and the managing agents, about issuing parking charges when you have the right to park written into the lease. Your lease has primacy. The display of a permit is not intended to imply any contractual relationship between yourself and the parking company but merely an aid for the parking company's employees to recognise that the vehicle is entitled to park at that location.

You can also have a go at the managing agents to cancel any PCNs issued to residents.

Perhaps post up the Notice to Hirer suitably redacted so that we can see is there are other errors that they have made.


Here we go

https://ibb.co/hv53cf

https://ibb.co/h4y9Hf

This post has been edited by blad4: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 12:06
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Redivi
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 11:24
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Remove the PCN number from that picture

Parking companies and their spawn follow this forum and, if they recognise a case, will use any information they find

As an aside, your management company has clearly been negligent and failed to perform any research before it employed P4P
It's impossible to employ a worse company

P4Parking (UK) Ltd has the same ownership as a notorious former clamper that turned to aggressive ticketing when its practice was banned
Its previous name was "Towed Away Ltd"

This post has been edited by Redivi: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 11:31
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blad4
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 12:07
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 11:24) *
Remove the PCN number from that picture

Parking companies and their spawn follow this forum and, if they recognise a case, will use any information they find

As an aside, your management company has clearly been negligent and failed to perform any research before it employed P4P
It's impossible to employ a worse company

P4Parking (UK) Ltd has the same ownership as a notorious former clamper that turned to aggressive ticketing when its practice was banned
Its previous name was "Towed Away Ltd"


Oh great, doesn't surprise me, but what a P'take for a name. Many thanks, edited
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 13:17
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I presume that the required documents weren't with the NTH so that my original suggested letter still applies.

You may also want to take them to task about their statement that the have obtained you details from the DVLA as the registered keeper. Completely untrue.

The rest of that PCN does not conform to the requirements of POFA in several places but for the time being just go with the failure of documents. Remember to wait. In this case so that your appeal gets there after day 21 and before the 28 days they give you.

They will probably refuse the appeal but give you a POPLA code, where POFA failure should produce a win.

Again, if by post, then first class and free certificate of posting from a post office
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blad4
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 13:30
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 13:17) *
I presume that the required documents weren't with the NTH so that my original suggested letter still applies.

You may also want to take them to task about their statement that the have obtained you details from the DVLA as the registered keeper. Completely untrue.

The rest of that PCN does not conform to the requirements of POFA in several places but for the time being just go with the failure of documents. Remember to wait. In this case so that your appeal gets there after day 21 and before the 28 days they give you.

They will probably refuse the appeal but give you a POPLA code, where POFA failure should produce a win.

Again, if by post, then first class and free certificate of posting from a post office


Thank you and actually an amusing point about using details from the DVLA vs. being the registered keeper.

I will perhaps file the email/online appeal on say Day 27? What do you think, or is a letter preferred here?

And I'm completely up for starting a case against P4Parking, and the management company for employing them too and going against their own lease agreements.

This post has been edited by blad4: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 13:31
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ostell
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 15:45
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email is fine. put on the option, if you can, to get delivery status Notification. At least you get informed when it gets to their mail server. BCC your self so that you can show that it went out

If this goes to POPLA then it will be a surefire win with all the POFA fails. Then start on getting not to issue notices.
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blad4
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 11:36
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 15:45) *
email is fine. put on the option, if you can, to get delivery status Notification. At least you get informed when it gets to their mail server. BCC your self so that you can show that it went out

If this goes to POPLA then it will be a surefire win with all the POFA fails. Then start on getting not to issue notices.


Two questions. Can the same thing could apply to tfl/council PCNs? As in they through the same route 'Reasonable Cause requests' therefore requiring the leaseholder paperwork to legitimise the NTH? Or being Penalty Charges as opposed to Parking Charges is there a different route?

My lease company keeps stating

'All customers must provide evidence that the notices were issued in error such as official confirmation the ticket was issued in error from the site or parking company/council so we can refund the admin fee. As the admin fee is contractual, credits are only raised in goodwill for any mitigating circumstances.'

But appeal outcomes even when successful never want to directly admit liability when emailing me confirmation that my appeal is successful. That is to say, the PCN was bogus in the first place. Quite frustrating as the lease company seems to make money out of nothing. Not sure what else to do as the clause is fair and clear, but I did not assume I'd have a residential vs. private parking problem after I initiated the lease.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:42
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Shockingly enough there is real regulatiomn of this area, under (usually) the TMA2004 , and there is no need to have reaosnable cause. this ius a REAL "P"enalty as opposed to the fake penalties contained in these notices

How much is the admin fee? If above about £10 or so, theyw ill struggle to justify that it is purely to cover their administration.
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ostell
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:46
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Without reading back through the previous entries I assume that you have a copy of your vehicle lease and it has a section about an admin fee for handling parking fines and penalties etc? What exactly does i say? Does it actually mention invoices from private parking companies, because this is certainly not a fine nor a penalty.

When you actually win you can then state the win to the lease company and state that it has been cancelled so can I have my money back please.
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blad4
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:25
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:42) *
Shockingly enough there is real regulatiomn of this area, under (usually) the TMA2004 , and there is no need to have reaosnable cause. this ius a REAL "P"enalty as opposed to the fake penalties contained in these notices


I see. Does that mean the importance of POFA is highly downgraded?

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:42) *
How much is the admin fee? If above about £10 or so, theyw ill struggle to justify that it is purely to cover their administration.


It is £12.50 + VAT

QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:46) *
Without reading back through the previous entries I assume that you have a copy of your vehicle lease and it has a section about an admin fee for handling parking fines and penalties etc? What exactly does i say? Does it actually mention invoices from private parking companies, because this is certainly not a fine nor a penalty.



In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with the Vehicles (the “Liability”): (a) Arval has no responsibility for the Liability; (b) the Hirer accepts all responsibility for the Liability including taking all appropriate action; and © the Hirer indemnifies ARVAL and holds ARVAL harmless against the Liability. Arval shall be entitled to charge the Hirer a reasonable administration fee for any work carried out or documentation processed relating to the Liability.

So yes the problem lies within their definition of a fine or penalty vs. an invoice, which you educated me on earlier in the thread.

QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:46) *
When you actually win you can then state the win to the lease company and state that it has been cancelled so can I have my money back please.


Herein lies the problem. They still claim that if I don't follow the 'rules' of these fake PCNs, (example overstay, forget to display etc), then they are liable to keep the admin charge due to 'driver error' being the cause of the administration and thus the charge.

They say that there is no mention of refunds in the lease contract, therefore any refund is still only a 'goodwill gesture', which they can consider if the parking company made the error, not the driver. I sense this is BS so they can cover their a$$ in the future.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:26
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POFA is about PRIVATE land, which has nothing whatsoever to do with public roads controlled bythe RTAs, TMA2004, the London acts etc

Complete red herring. Stop even considering the two as being in any way shape or form similar to eachother. They are not. For a start a council penalty charge is a proscribed in law penalty, not a mere invoice.

£15 is likely entirely unchallenageble. Reference is the bank admin charges.
Its when it gets up to £30+ that you can point out this charge is clealry not purely to cover expended costs but incluides profit, as it does not cost £30 to spend 5 minutessending a standard letter.
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ostell
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:27
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TMA covers REAL penalties from real authorities like the police and local government, POFA is for private invoices from private companies. Chalk and Cheese

POFA cannot be applied to the real penalties, it's for private parking only.
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