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Riding without reasonable consideration - from headcam footage
Garterman
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 13:32
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Hello,

A member of the public on a motorbike sent headcam footage to the police of me overtaking him on my mootorbike while he was allegedly doing 30mph himself. I have been sent a NIP for 'driving without reasonable consideration for other users' and am at the point where I need to make a court plea in the next few days.
The video just shows be overtaking in the right hand lane while he's in the left lane of a two-lane road, no lack of consideration is apparent to me and it seems the only suggestion is that I was going over the speed limit. There's a speed figure showing on the footage, which I presume is GPS, which shows him doing 28-31 mph around the time. He looks at his speedo which showed around 30mph too. I don't think I could have been over the speed limit though. Another bike overtakes the same way just before me which adds to my belief that the taker of the video was actually travelling less than 30mph. Is this persons headcam speedo admissible evidence to prove my own speed?

I read somewhere that if video footage is available on social media then it's not admissible as evidence, is that correct?

Thank you for any advice/information
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post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 13:32
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Mr Meldrew
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 10:23
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Considering the lack of typical motorbike sounds, the glimpses of handlebars, and the fact that every motorised vehicle passed the vehicle with a considerable speed differential, I can imagine that its possible to be mistaken that the overtake itself was inconsiderate towards a vulnerable cyclist, else I’m at a loss as to how the OP was inconsiderate towards a fellow motorcyclist, and I saw no one in the vicinity inconvenienced, including the Ford driver.


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Earl Purple
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 11:11
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From the video it's clear the one taking the video is riding a motorcycle, not a pedal cycle.

You see a car overtake him then put on brake lights as the car approaches a speed camera.

I can't even see reg plates from that video.

I can't tell for certain if one of the bikes at the Seven Sisters Road junction is yours but there are 2 there so presumably one of them did overtake earlier.

Ignore the 20mph section, I don't think the incident happens there. Once it goes to court, it can only be on the offence charged, not something else, so I guess you can't be done for speeding once it has reached the court stage. (At CoFP I guess it is still open but it seems to have gone past that stage).

Surprised CPS even continued to take this to court.
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progbloke
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 11:19
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Also the clock is clearly wrong as at 5.23AM it would still be getting light, whereas we see sunlight on the buildings.

Sunrise was 5.43AM, so perhaps it was still set to GMT?
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 11:47
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Whatever.

In the evidence I see the OP is probably speeding and I don't know all the regulations that it would require but it seems irrelevant now anyway as I think this has reached the court stage so the OP is only having to defend the charge made which is inconsiderate and I can't see a case for that here.

They are probably "out of time" in the prospect of adding in any further charges and from that evidence I would return not guilty if I were judging.


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Colin_S
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:55
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 10:13) *
The filming was ay 0521 if the clock on the video was correct, but I could not see clearly enough to tell what hours the bus lane was operative. I notice the camera bike is in the bus lane most of the time and other traffic is mostly avoiding it.


I too spotted the time of the video / bus lane hours and am pretty sure that bus lane is 7 am to 7 pm so (even allowing for 1 hour out due to BST) the bus lane was not a bus lane at the time and therefore clearly an undertake which is the only issue I could see.

When posting video, the Police ask for a it to include a (can't remember actual figure) chunk of before the incident footage. Presumably to check for any reasons leading up to the incident such as provocation, etc. so perhaps the undertake is the incident in question.

This post has been edited by Colin_S: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 13:56
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 14:59
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It could be that Plod got hold of the rider's helmet cam because of his own riding and at the same time decided to "get" the other biker who had zoomed past him earlier.

Let's ignore all the bike-stealing going on and go around seeing what we can make from dashcam footage.
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Mayhem007
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 09:53
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 16:28) *
Going by that video things have clearly changed since I was a regular biker - not least that the "lifesaver" seems to have been abandoned in favour of an unhealthy obsession with the speedometer. I don't recall rushing to report other bikers' minor transgressions to the police, either.

Could it be that the biker was an off duty police motorbiker.


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Irksome
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 13:54
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No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
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southpaw82
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 16:34
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)

Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


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Logician
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 23:05
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?



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666
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 05:59
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?


But that exeption does not apply to the trainee ....
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southpaw82
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:37
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?

I very much doubt it. Equally, the impression given was that this behaviour was to be continued, at which point there would be absolutely no question of there being a police purpose.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:37


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The Rookie
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:43
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When I had advanced driver training it was with ex-cop trainers, we were pushed to 'make progress' and to drive up to the limit +10% "Because that's the speedo error" no argument was accepted that the permitted speedo error was 0- 10% so the average was likely to be 5%. That was the mid 90's, how times change!


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Logician
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:11
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QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 06:59) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.
Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?
But that exeption does not apply to the trainee ....


The exception applies to the vehicle, not the driver.



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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:51
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?

The exemption only applies if complying with the speed limit would frustrate the purpose for which the vehicle is being used on that occasion. It's hard to see how that requirement would be satisfied.

As for the video, it contains no evidence of any offence. The purpose of a bus lane is to allow vehicles that are allowed in the bus lane to pass vehicles that are not allowed in the bus lane. There is no admissible evidence of speed whatsoever as there is no evidence of speed recorded by a home office type approved device. It's one of the most unremarkable pieces of dashcam footage I have ever seen.


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Irksome
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 19:32
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As per cp8759's post the discussion about a poliic officer pushing a civilian rider under training to exceed the speed limits is irrelevant to the OP's case - I simply added post that as a an example of why (in my experience) the footage we've seen was not from a trained traffic (motorcycle) officer.

The OP seems to have gone quiet, lets see if they come back?
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Atrixblue.-MFR-.
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:04
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How did this get passed the evidential test to warrant even sending out anything to the alleged rider?

This post has been edited by Atrixblue.-MFR-.: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:04
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Mayhem007
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 10:11
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Just to be more accurate I was referring to the biker with the head cam as being an off duty police officer, perhaps even an off duty police motor biker, which might explain why a fellow motor biker would take the time to report another fellow motor biker.
And if the said motor biker supplying the so called evidence, would his written evidence be given more weight in court.


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Earl Purple
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 11:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:51) *
The exemption only applies if complying with the speed limit would frustrate the purpose for which the vehicle is being used on that occasion. It's hard to see how that requirement would be satisfied.


Are you referring to a case where someone decides to start to overtake and then just "hangs" over the vehicle in lane 2 locking the vehicle they decided to overtake in lane 1 so they can't get out when slow traffic appears in front of them.

Probably the primary reason why so many drivers hog the middle lane themselves.

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cp8759
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 19:00
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:51) *
The exemption only applies if complying with the speed limit would frustrate the purpose for which the vehicle is being used on that occasion. It's hard to see how that requirement would be satisfied.


Are you referring to a case where someone decides to start to overtake and then just "hangs" over the vehicle in lane 2 locking the vehicle they decided to overtake in lane 1 so they can't get out when slow traffic appears in front of them.

Probably the primary reason why so many drivers hog the middle lane themselves.

No I was referring to section 87(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984:

No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire and rescue authority, for ambulance purposes or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 19:00


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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