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Notice of Enforcement of unknown Penalty Charge Notice, Received notice of enforcement of a surprise penalty charge notice
unpleasantlysurp...
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 17:55
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Hi,

I'm not sure if this is the right forum to post this as I'm not sure what the Penalty Charge Notice is about, but, here goes.

Received a letter today, Thursday 6th September, advising me that the Enforcement Process has commenced relating to a Penalty Charge Notice from a County Council (not the one I live in). The notice was apparently issued September 1st 2018, following a warrant issued March 7th 2018.

I have been to the city in question in the last 12 months (September 2017 and June 2018) but not on or around the dates that the warrant was issued, I don't know the date of the PCN in question as I've received no letters or any form of communication telling me that I have a penalty charge notice.

The total amount payable is £423, broken down as £113 debt, Compliance stage fee of £75 and an enforcement stage free of £235.

This is the first I have heard of any outstanding charge from any council, and I have until the 9th September 2018 to pay before the bailiffs may 'take control'.

The car is registered to the address at which I live and has been since I moved in, (August 2017), and no letters have been received here. Happy to provide any extra information, really not sure what my options are.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.
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post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 17:55
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Incandescent
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 21:57
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You're in the right forum for Penalty Charge Notices issued by councils and other bodies like Transport for London under decriminalised enforcement.

It is likely the alleged contravention occurred before you advised DVLA of your change of address. It can take many months before a warrant is issued. You need to urgently find out the alleged contravention date. At this late stage in the game, your only legal avenue is to make an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration or Witness Statement (which one depends on what the PCN was originally issued for). Please post up what you have received, suitably redacted. Whilst free to submit, OOTs can be opposed by the issuing council at which point they are rejected by the TEC. YOu can then have the decision reviewed by a County Court judge, (£100 to review the papers, £255 for interview with judge "in chambers"). Neither sum is recoverable.

Assuming this is a parking PCN, before bailiffs can be instructed, three documents have to be issued apart from the original PCN served to the car or driver
1. Notice to Owner
2. Charge Certificate
3. Order for Recovery

For bus lane contraventions, the PCNs are issued by post, so no separate Notice to Owner is issued.

All are sent to the name and address on the V5C. Is this correct and was it updated promptly ? There could have been an unfortunate clash of timings here, but most cases we see, the OP has been very tardy in updating the V5.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:00
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Enceladus
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 06:20
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You'll need the PCN number to submit a Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration Out of Time. Is it on the Enforcement Notice? If not please ring the council concerned asap and find out. You need to try and get your SD or WS and OOT submitted to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court today if at all possible.

Is this the only notice you've received from the bailiff?
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unpleasantlysurp...
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 06:56
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Hi,

The v5 was sent off almost immediately after moving house in August. My first trip to Cardiff was in late September so if the DVLA took some time to process it it’s possible there was an overlap.

This is the only communication I have had from anyone and it is the first communication from the bailiff. Nobody has visited yet.

Attached is the letter.
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peterguk
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:40
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:56) *
The v5 was sent off almost immediately after moving house in August.


Out of interest, what's the DOC REF DATE on p2 of your V5C?


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unpleasantlysurp...
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 08:40
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Hi,

Not got that to hand but I have spoken to the council who have confirmed the letters were sent to the old address so unfortunately unlucky with dates.

The council have advised a TE7 and TE3 form, the TE3 looks like it should come to me from them?
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hcandersen
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:32
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OP, do not take ANY steps without checking here first.

And if we say to do something no later than, it’s not a polite advisory request, take it as an order or risk the consequences.

You’ve phoned the council.

So:
PCN number; date issued; what contravention; dates of subsequent notices, BY THEIR NAME, not ‘a notice’ or ‘a letter’.
Did you own the vehicle; when did you change address; did you put in place mail redirection with Royal Mail for the person named on the V5C and for how long; what other formal arrangements did you make to have your mail forwarded; informal arrangements?

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Enceladus
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:09
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Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court on 01604-619450 or 0300-1231059 and quote the PCN reference.
Confirm the date and the address on the warrant?
Whether or not the warrant has ever been re-issued to your current address?
If so, when?
And confirm that a Witness Statement (form TE9) and it's associated Out of Time application (form TE7) is required. As opposed to a Statutory Declaration (form PE3) and OOT (form PE2), which are for moving traffic contraventions such as bus-lanes, yellow boxes and the like.

And yes what is the docref date on the V5c? Do you know the date of the contravention? If not then please ask the TEC?

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:09
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Neil B
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:30
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 11:09) *
And confirm that a Witness Statement (form TE9) and it's associated Out of Time application (form TE7) is required. As opposed to a Statutory Declaration (form PE3) and OOT (form PE2), which are for moving traffic contraventions such as bus-lanes, yellow boxes and the like.

For Wales everything is Witness Statement.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:40) *
The council have advised a TE7 and TE3 form, the TE3 looks like it should come to me from them?

Just a confused clerk. TE7 & TE9, as has been said.

Yes TE3, 'Order for Recovery' was one of the notices you missed from them and TE9 would have originally
been on the back of it.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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unpleasantlysurp...
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:29
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 11:09) *
Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court on 01604-619450 or 0300-1231059 and quote the PCN reference.
Confirm the date and the address on the warrant?
Whether or not the warrant has ever been re-issued to your current address?
If so, when?
And confirm that a Witness Statement (form TE9) and it's associated Out of Time application (form TE7) is required. As opposed to a Statutory Declaration (form PE3) and OOT (form PE2), which are for moving traffic contraventions such as bus-lanes, yellow boxes and the like.

And yes what is the docref date on the V5c? Do you know the date of the contravention? If not then please ask the TEC?


Just tried calling but they close at 17:00 so will call on Monday morning to confirm the additional information you've mentioned.

The infraction was for stopping in a yellow box, but with it being in Wales is it still a TE9 and TE7? I've downloaded those forms from the gov site, do I need to wait to speak to TEC before sending those in?

The doc date on the V5 shows that it was received after the infraction on October 10 2017, and the infraction was September 23 2017. Not what my partner initially told me so I can put my hands up and accept responsibility for that. I also don't think that I will appeal the actual infraction, I will be happy if I can get this back to the initial stage and pay either the reduced or original amount.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 11:09) *
OP, do not take ANY steps without checking here first.

And if we say to do something no later than, it’s not a polite advisory request, take it as an order or risk the consequences.

You’ve phoned the council.

So:
PCN number; date issued; what contravention; dates of subsequent notices, BY THEIR NAME, not ‘a notice’ or ‘a letter’.
Did you own the vehicle; when did you change address; did you put in place mail redirection with Royal Mail for the person named on the V5C and for how long; what other formal arrangements did you make to have your mail forwarded; informal arrangements?


I have the PCN number, date: Sept 23rd 2017, contravention: stopping in a yellow box junction, but not the subsequent notices. I owned the vehicle at the time, going by the v5 I didn't change the address in time as I had initially thought but no redirection in place with Royal Mail. I had spoken with my previous landlord who had (verbally) said they would let me know if any mail arrived but I suspect the new tenant disposed of it instead of letting them know. A lesson learned there.

Additionally, the council advised to call the solicitors and advise that I will be appealing to the TEC and thus the solicitors have given me a 7 day extension.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:40
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I moved house on .....
I notified DVLA by ... on ....
Date registered keeper entry amended by DVLA ( the doc ref date) .....
Contravention date 23 Sept.
PCN issued 23 Sept (very quick!)

Is this it in a nutshell?
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Neil B
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:31
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 11:09) *
Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court on 01604-619450 or 0300-1231059 and quote the PCN reference.
Confirm the date and the address on the warrant?
Whether or not the warrant has ever been re-issued to your current address?
If so, when?


The infraction was for stopping in a yellow box, but with it being in Wales is it still a TE9 and TE7?
YES
I've downloaded those forms from the gov site, do I need to wait to speak to TEC before sending those in?
On the other matters Enceladus mentioned, yes.

But you also need to note what HCA said -

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 11:09) *
OP, do not take ANY steps without checking here first.

And if we say to do something no later than, it’s not a polite advisory request, take it as an order or risk the consequences.



QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 17:29) *
The doc date on the V5 shows that it was received after the infraction on October 10 2017,
No; the docref is the date your vehicle record was changed.
and the infraction was September 23 2017.
I have the PCN number, date: Sept 23rd 2017,
It's very unlikely the PCN was issued on the date of the contravention. Check that.

I didn't change the address in time as I had initially thought.
As with the matters above you're making your own assumptions rather than asking us the relevance of dates, etc.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 23:06
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 17:29) *
Additionally, the council advised to call the solicitors and advise that I will be appealing to the TEC and thus the solicitors have given me a 7 day extension.

Solicitors? Or do you mean the bailiffs (aka enforcement agents)?

I agree, it does not seem credible that the PCN was issued and presumably posted on the same day as the contravention. There is normally a lag of around 7-14 days. Also the 23rd of Sept was a Saturday. It would be good to get the dates of the original contravention and the postal PCN confirmed. To me the 23rd Sept to the 10th Oct is entirely plausible for delay within the DVLA.

You haven't confirmed the date you moved?

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 00:07
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Neil B
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 16:06
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:56) *
This is the only communication I have had from anyone and it is the first communication from the bailiff. Nobody has visited yet.

And I have issues with it: Where is the £235 ?

Their applying that sum at this point is dubious.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:13
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 17:06) *
QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:56) *
This is the only communication I have had from anyone and it is the first communication from the bailiff. Nobody has visited yet.

And I have issues with it: Where is the £235 ?

Their applying that sum at this point is dubious.

So I, amongst others, noticed. Likely means that they have already tried to enforce at the old address and failed. Hence I would like to know whether or not the Council applied to have the warrant re-issued against the current address?

We still don't know:
The date the OP moved address,
The date of the contravention,
The date of the PCN (possibly Sept 23rd '17,
Solicitors acting for whom?

I suggest that the OP needs to be on the phone to the TEC at 09:00 tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:23
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unpleasantlysurp...
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 20:09
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Hi,

Thanks all for your help and my apologies for me not being as helpful in return.

I will be calling the TEC tomorrow as early as possible to find out:
- Confirm date and address on the warrant
- Has warrant been reissued to current address
- When was the PCN issued

Date moved house: August 15th 2017
Contravention: September 23rd 2017
PCN Issue date: I will know this tomorrow

By solicitors I meant the collection agency that wrote to me with the notice of commencement.

I will be back tomorrow, maybe after work to update with what I have. The collection agency have given me an extension until Friday to lodge the TE7 and TE9 with the TEC.
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Neil B
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 21:18
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QUOTE (unpleasantlysurprised @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 21:09) *
I will be calling the TEC tomorrow as early as possible to find out:
-
-
- When was the PCN issued

TEC will only have the contravention date.

You need to ask the Council.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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unpleasantlysurp...
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 14:41
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Hi, I’ve spoken to the council again, I’m just trying to get hold of the TEC now but the line has been busy all day.

Contact from the council:
pCN issued: 10/10/17 (same date as v5 doc date)
Charge certificate: 13/11/17
Order for recovery: 10/01/18

I’ll update when I speak to TEC about the warrant and any reissuances

Update: spoken with TEC, warrant was issued 07/03/18 to the old address and wasn’t reissued at any point.

As I said before I don’t think I will appeal the original infraction as I do remember it, I just hope there is enough here to go back to first stage. What should I write for the TE7

This post has been edited by unpleasantlysurprised: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 15:02
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Enceladus
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 15:06
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That's good. Now you can legitimately claim and more to the point demonstrate that the EA query to the DVLA for the Keeper details crossed over with your request to the DVLA to update the address. It could easily have been submitted before the 23rd Sept (date of contravention subject to confirmation). It normally takes the DVLA 2-4 weeks to process anything. The EA's own case progression history is likely to show that the request was made and responded to on Mon 9th of Oct. However we've not seen that yet and probably won't until the case gets before the TPT.

The priority right now is to get the bailiff enforcement halted. To do that you need to complete and submit the Witness Statement and the Out of Time application. The WS is easy, you didn't receive the original PCN. The OOT is the one that counts. It's a matter of emphasising that the contravention occurred before the DVLA had processed the address update, but that the update request had been submitted before the contravention. Going against you is that you moved on Aug 15th 2017 and it looks like you waited at least a month before requesting the DVLA update. Any reason for the delay?

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 15:08
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