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38L Contravention: Lionel Rd, Ealing - worth contesting?, Do I have a chance as other side of the road on camera?
advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 00:36
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Received the below PCN (sighhhh)...

Not the only one who has received one recently.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t111803.html

Appears Council stuck a camera there to net the driver little fishies.

Seems the driver scooted around the other side of the road, as was very tight and late at night with no traffic.

Road island is here:
51.49758, -0.29847

Road island looks equal from both sides, but coming to the junction from the direction of the car, very tight:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4972418,-...3312!8i6656

Camera location seems here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4974896,-...3312!8i6656


Do I have a chance?

I guess it depends on the video - but if I wait for that do I loose the lower payment amount?

Certainly welcome any guidance or strategy.

Thanks in advance.








This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 09:30
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:46
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 17:27) *
How fast were you driving at the time?

Driver will have no idea - was a while ago. It would not have been fast, as driver is generally careful, there are speedbumps, its a narrow road and it was late night and dark.

From car level the entrance to the correct side of the island would have looked very tight, specially in the dark. Moreover, you cannot straddle the speed bump on the left side of the road - the car is not the newest and can do with straddling as many speed bumps as possible.

Don' t know if this is all academic? - if there is no justification for going around the other side unless there is a clear obstruction?

Council should be extending the yellow line so there is more car clearance to view the island entrance clearly and straddle the speed bump (can't see them doing that if they hear the till ringing - cha-ching)




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stamfordman
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:54
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Just saying as it's a 20mph limit so not much excuse for failing to navigate it.
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advicewelcome
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 09:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 17:54) *
Just saying as it's a 20mph limit so not much excuse for failing to navigate it.


you would have to go slower than 20mph to get around any parked car and around that island.

Anycase, today got an email saying that the video evidence is "ready".

When clicking on the email link and entering PCN numbers I get the below.

You sometimes feel that there is conspiracy to not rush the video out in advance of the 14 days.

I guess this is all at the Councils discretion if they wish to accept reduced funds after 14 days - nowt the motorist can do?






Oh, and auto-reply below in response to my email asking for more time.

Considering I have to make a decision tomorrow, how much fun it is to read...


"Thank you for your communication. Please take this automated response as confirmation that we have received your email. However, if your email does not contain a valid Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number or VRM that is on our system we will be unable to respond to you.

This email address is only to be used for challenges/representations against PCNs that have been issued by Hounslow Council. Please read the response times below. Do not send an email chasing your challenge/representation until at least 21 days have passed.

Response Times to Penalty Charge Notice Challenges and Representations
While the Council is only required to respond to representations within certain statutory timescales (typically 56 days), we endeavor to deal with most correspondence within 10 working days.

Further information regarding these statutory timescales, as well as other useful information regarding parking, can be found at the following link:
http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport...arking/pcns.htm

Parking Permits and General Enquiries
This email address cannot be used for general or Parking Permit enquiries and is only to be used for challenges/representations against PCNs that have been issued by Hounslow Council. You must supply a valid PCN number or VRM.

Resident/Business Parking Permits - To apply for a permit, please use the EasiPermits online service available via the ‘Apply for a parking permit’ link at www.hounslow.gov.uk

Kind Regards
Parking Team - Hounslow"









This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Wed, 23 May 2018 - 10:02
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advicewelcome
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:20
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Its pay day today - or appeal and fight it.

Got the video through today (I guess the email may have got them into action).

https://youtu.be/KECyr6EduIk

Can see the driver hesitating and then taking the other side of the island - split second decision - is not easy to see in the dark.

Its not possible to avoid the car to the left of the driver, not go across the hatched lined area, and straddle the hump.

The hatched lined area does not provide enough space from the parked car and thus the confusion. The other side does not have this problem.

Anyone with a educated view on if this would be definitely be successful in appeal (others have not) and is willing to assist with content to for an appeal.

Else I will have to pay it.

Welcome views.

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advicewelcome
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 13:58
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Should I assume from the deft silence this is a lost cause and my wallet is going to be lighter this bank holiday? sad.gif

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KECyr6EduIk
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stamfordman
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 14:20
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They will reoffer the discount if you don't make a frivolous appeal so you could try. I wouldn't bother given the almost non-existent appeal success here.
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cp8759
post Sun, 27 May 2018 - 13:33
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Fri, 25 May 2018 - 14:58) *
Should I assume from the deft silence this is a lost cause and my wallet is going to be lighter this bank holiday? sad.gif

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KECyr6EduIk

Well it's a clear-cut case of just driving on the wrong side of the road, dare I say for no apparent reason / benefit. We won't advise you to appeal if the appeal would be hopeless, you'd be wasting the tribunal's time and you'd be at risk of an adverse costs order do you'd lose even more money. It's hard to see what non-frivolous appeal you could make.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 00:43
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Thanks for the views.... just one quick thing...

Was paying this prior to the deadline. When inputting PCN/Reg in website it indicated the amount to pay was £0.

Anycase, put in my debit card number etc.. and got an email confirmation of payment (the email had an Authorisation Code of "ZERO_AMOUNT")?

Tried entering PCN/Reg back in website and it says its already paid (kept a screenshot).

Glitch or deliberate council approach to put the scare on?

Do I have a defendable position as I have screen shot and email confirmation of payment?


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stamfordman
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 07:59
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You could call the payment line and see what they say.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 09:00
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You've got a good argument if they try to dun you for£130
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 May 2018 - 22:28
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 01:43) *
Thanks for the views.... just one quick thing...

Was paying this prior to the deadline. When inputting PCN/Reg in website it indicated the amount to pay was £0.

Anycase, put in my debit card number etc.. and got an email confirmation of payment (the email had an Authorisation Code of "ZERO_AMOUNT")?

Tried entering PCN/Reg back in website and it says its already paid (kept a screenshot).

Glitch or deliberate council approach to put the scare on?

Do I have a defendable position as I have screen shot and email confirmation of payment?

Keep screenshots of everything, if they say you have to pay £130 you have a pretty much cast iron defence.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Drivingpains
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 01:03
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Hi, oh yes, if you can believe it....

Received a PCN Web Order Reference number indicating payment back in late May-18 (above thread).

Just received a Charge Certificate dated 15-Aug-18 indicating that Penalty amount of £130 has gone up to the full amount of £195 and this is due.

This seems like a screw up with Serco (who are administrating on behalf of London Hounslow).

This is my proposed email reply. Do let me know if I should change anything...


Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

A payment transaction occurred for this ticket and a receipt was received via email.

The additional Charge Certificate indicating no payment and increase in funds for this PCN is incorrect.

I have a PCN WEB ORDER REFERNCE number which provide evidence that the transaction occurred.

PCN WEB ORDER REFERENCE : HOU_XXXXXXX_XXXX_XX_

This order reference number was send to me in confirmation.

I will assume that the further Charge Certificate is an error on your side and will take no further action.

I also welcome confirmation that the WEB ORDER REFERENCE number is correct.

If I receive further requests for payment I will escalate my complaint to a representative at the Council.

I request that you contact me via this email (and not rely on letters) as I travel away from my home address often.


Thanks.

Name
Address
Reg Number
PCN Number





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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 12:02
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Did you actually pay the £65 charge?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Drivingpains
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 07:40
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 13:02) *
Did you actually pay the £65 charge?

Thanks for the reply. Went through the motions, went to the payment website, entered in the Reg number, got payment screens, entered in the card, got a payment successful screen as well...



Also got a payment successful email as follow up - and then noticed it said £0.00 on the payment email.
The emails for contact are to Serco which are probably who Houslow have outsourced this work too. Clearly that company has screwed up with their systems (maybe things are a mess as got "your video is ready" emails months later as well).

Anyhow having paid if (or at least attempting to) on 25-May-18, then got the below 3months later...



The generic email provided is hounslow.challenges@serco.com. Thinking of sending the below message with the payment screen attached. If Serco have screwed up, the only way out of it (I guess) is to assume they do not want their council bosses to know and send in the above evidence to them which may mean they cancel the ticket? Unless there are any other ideas? I suppose worse case they can ask if for the initial payment again.


Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

A payment transaction occurred for this ticket and a receipt was received via email.

The additional Charge Certificate indicating no payment and increase in funds for this PCN is incorrect.

I have a PCN WEB ORDER REFERNCE number which provide evidence that the transaction occurred.

PCN WEB ORDER REFERENCE : HOU_XXXXXXX_XXXX_XX_

This order reference number was send to me in confirmation.

I will assume that the further Charge Certificate is an error on your side and will take no further action.

I also welcome confirmation that the WEB ORDER REFERENCE number is correct.

If I receive further requests for payment I will escalate my complaint to a representative at the Council.

I request that you contact me via this email (and not rely on letters) as I travel away from my home address often.


Thanks.

Name
Address
Reg Number
PCN Number



Should I send the above email? - any edits to it? Or anything else I should be doing?

This post has been edited by Drivingpains: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 07:42
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cp8759
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:22
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Well did they take £65 from your bank account?


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 00:57
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:22) *
Well did they take £65 from your bank account?

No, don't think they took the money even though I put card and other details in for payment. Seemed like some kind of system error as they were trying to process £0.00 payment and then provided a successful transaction page and sent a payment successful email - with a transaction number afterwards.

Unsure where I stand, if the incompetence of Serco providing some kind of payment confirmation will mean there is a way out of paying any of it? . The emails on the letters are to Serco inboxes and not their clients Houslow who probably are unaware of these mess ups. Hence the threats on my email to go to their clients if they don't drop it - dunno if I should change the contents of that email or do something else?

This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 09:18
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Drivingpains
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 09:50
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https://www.serco.com/uk/news/media-release...london-alliance

"Elaine Bailey, Managing Director of Serco's home affairs business said: "We are delighted to have been awarded this exciting new contract to run parking services for the West London Alliance. We believe our fresh ideas and extensive experience in managing complex operations and innovative technologies will deliver a much improved and more efficient parking service across all three boroughs. This will not only benefit both local residents and visitors but also deliver significant savings to the taxpayer. Civil Enforcement is a fast growing market, both in the UK and globally, and Serco is well placed to add innovation and value to future opportunities in this market."
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cp8759
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 19:04
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If, when the payment failed to go through, you didn't either make representations or attempt to pay by other means, then you've lost your right to appeal and there's not much you can do apart from paying the increased charge. You can't claim the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as the tribunal has ruled that if one payment method doesn't work you should make a reasonable attempt to pay by other means.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 23:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 20:04) *
If, when the payment failed to go through, you didn't either make representations or attempt to pay by other means, then you've lost your right to appeal and there's not much you can do apart from paying the increased charge. You can't claim the penalty exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, as the tribunal has ruled that if one payment method doesn't work you should make a reasonable attempt to pay by other means.



This is worrying. I guess in this circumstance a confirmation screen and email was received indicating that the payment had been successful, therefore no attempt for any other payment method... reasonable position?

I suppose I have nothing to loose by making these arguments? as they are demanding the full amount now. Is there anything else I should do other then sending the above email to serco mailbox, am open to suggestions.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 06:40
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???
According to OP they attempted to pay what they thought was the outstanding penalty.

Council system showed outstanding balance of £0.

Notwithstanding this, OP thought this might be an error and so completed the online payment procedure just in case the sum of £65 was still owing and could be paid.

Received confirmation by way of **** that payment of £0 had been received.

As we know, councils have the power to exercise discretion at any time. Why shouldn’t the OP, as your average owner and not one steeped in the finer points of procedure and tribunal decisions, reasonably assume that they had done so on this occasion?

Why should OP try by other means, there’s nothing to try, the recognised - as I understand it- council page stated that £0 was owed. Walk into their payment shop(if they have one) and browbeat the staff into accepting £65? But they couldn’t, all they’ve got is access to the same system.

(there are £squillions held in council suspense accounts up and down the land, all there because people pay monies not owed or incorrectly referenced. But there’s no suggestion here that the OP misreferenced their details).

I’d write to the council, but not in an overtly legal manner, just plain simple facts about the error. Tell them that receiving the Charge Cert has unfairly cost you £130 because you were content to pay the penalty at the discounted rate but this has now increased to £195. The only solution which you can see is for you to submit representations late, for these (which only go to mitigation) to be considered by the authority and probably rejected, but what is life without hope, which rejection would re-offer the discount and allow the authority to put their payment system back into order so that you could pay. And include the best mitigation you can muster.

But you must get back to them quickly and make them aware.



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