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38L Contravention: Lionel Rd, Ealing - worth contesting?, Do I have a chance as other side of the road on camera?
advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 00:36
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Received the below PCN (sighhhh)...

Not the only one who has received one recently.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t111803.html

Appears Council stuck a camera there to net the driver little fishies.

Seems the driver scooted around the other side of the road, as was very tight and late at night with no traffic.

Road island is here:
51.49758, -0.29847

Road island looks equal from both sides, but coming to the junction from the direction of the car, very tight:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4972418,-...3312!8i6656

Camera location seems here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4974896,-...3312!8i6656


Do I have a chance?

I guess it depends on the video - but if I wait for that do I loose the lower payment amount?

Certainly welcome any guidance or strategy.

Thanks in advance.








This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 09:30
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post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 00:36
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stamfordman
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 06:52
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It isn't a junction, just a road island.

What do you think the video would show?

Can't see anything here - maybe others will see a fault in the PCN but it looks the same as other cases.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 06:56
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 09:31
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..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.
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peterguk
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 09:39
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:31) *
..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.


If the driver knows they went the wrong side of the island, then that's what the video will show. Can't think of a reason to appeal. Maybe someone else will think of somerhing. Lucky a cop wasn't following you!


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StuartBu
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:43
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Looks like a normal centre road traffic island . I don't see why you ( OP) describe it as " tight" . Appears to be plenty room to get through.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:47
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My advice is pay up. However-----

If there is only one camera then, from the direction the car was approaching the island, it cannot show that the vehicle passed a directional sign. In other words the images and the video will not prove the contravention in themselves. Read what the PCN says about CCTV and one must conclude that there is no proof. Of course the Council could supply stock images of the correct sign at adjudication but IMO the use of the camera here is unsustainable for vehicles travelling in that direction.

Mick
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spaceman
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:15
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 10:31) *
..thanks updated it to "Road island". Welcome any thoughts on approach - if I can pay lower amount and then appeal? How to get vid evidence or if its even worth contesting.


Paying the penalty charge will generally close the case.

Personally, I can't see any hope at adjudication where balance of probability comes into play.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26
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There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice."

Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

The other was where the left lane was actually blocked.

Forget the direction of travel - adjudicators are happy with a pic of the keep left sign.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:31
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 16:52
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Looks banged to rights, don't see how you would contest this.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 23:25
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

Ya saying that approx two "appeals" allowed out of 180 (not the other way around i.e. two cases allowed and 178 successfully appealed)?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice." Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

Ta. Have requested the video and will post up.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:56
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 00:25) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
There are probably 180 or so tribunal cases on this location in the past 4 years and part from a few no contests I can only spot two allowed:

Ya saying that approx two "appeals" allowed out of 180 (not the other way around i.e. two cases allowed and 178 successfully appealed)?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 May 2018 - 12:26) *
"The Penalty Charge Notice alleges a contravention at 11:58. The CCTV footage shows the appellant's car drive past the traffic island at 11:57. I find that no contravention occurred at the time alleged on the Penalty Charge Notice." Is the PCN at 22:03 but pics at 22:01? Have you checked for the video on Hounslow's site?

Ta. Have requested the video and will post up.



A search brought up 193 cases in Lionel Road North. A few of those are for other contraventions (eg parking on pavement) but the vast majority I reckon are for the traffic island. Nearly all were refused at appeal. The only one that might be a glimmer of hope is the time on the PCN vs the time of the video.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 16 May 2018 - 06:57
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advicewelcome
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 15:10
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Hi,

Date of this notice was 11-May-2018.

Assume I have until the 25-May-2018 to pay £65 else it will be £130.

There is no sign of this requested video evidence mad.gif.

Received a PCN video email couple of days ago, but it was for a PCN in May 2016 (old one) blink.gif

Whatsa a chap gonna do here? If we wait for the video, will loose the option to pay lower rate.

From the consensus of the above, if the driver drove on the other side of the island (because it was tight) - its a slam dunk for them - unless the driver can prove they had too - which may be hard even with the video evidence (due to its angle).

Do I just pay the £65 quid now and be done with it?

Really appreciate past advise - welcome best approach now thoughts.





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stamfordman
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 15:45
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I would pay this at discount. If you want to satisfy yourself go look at the tribunal decisions.

One made me laugh - a driver who claimed there was 'broken glass' - dismissed by the adjudicator as 'preposterous'.
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advicewelcome
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:10
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:45) *
I would pay this at discount. If you want to satisfy yourself go look at the tribunal decisions.
Think you are right. Not sure where to look - be good to know for future reference.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:45) *
One made me laugh - a driver who claimed there was 'broken glass' - dismissed by the adjudicator as 'preposterous'.
The supplier for viewmypcn.co.uk are obviously pretty useless. I am getting emails about videos being ready that were requested in 2016. There is no sign of the current video request showing up.

Its a p*ss take to not make the video available quickly by the supplier when the council have put a 14 day time limit around the reduce payment to the appellant.

Is there a defence for not paying the reduced amount until the video evidence is actually available? Or even not paying it due to the wrong video being provided?

... just asking.

This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:10
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stamfordman
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 16:13
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You can appeal and they will reoffer the discount when they reject, which will give time to get hold of the video.

But what are you looking for here? An invisible force field in the left hand lane?
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 01:17
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 17:13) *
You can appeal and they will reoffer the discount when they reject, which will give time to get hold of the video.
But what are you looking for here? An invisible force field in the left hand lane?


Well anything that may show the reasoning for scooting around. Maybe there a violation by someone parking on the double yellow line making it very tight in that lane when in the dark (clearly there are many drivers who have taken this action).

The challenge is that you can't check and make a viable appeal until you see the video. Unless an appeal is sent, requesting more time so that the video can be viewed? Is that technically possible?

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stamfordman
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 08:22
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Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.

The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 15:55
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 09:22) *
Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.
The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.


It aint the council - the only email is a Serco email. Would I write to them and expect them to respond in the next day letting me know I have more time?
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:55) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 09:22) *
Anything's possible - the council has full discretion to put it on hold.
The pic on the PCN shows nothing though.

It aint the council - the only email is a Serco email. Would I write to them and expect them to respond in the next day letting me know I have more time?

Sent the below. If anything else I should include, let me know and will send additional email.

"Hi, in reference to a PCN on LIONEL NORTH ROAD

The driver is unable to determine if this PCN is valid and if and how it should be appealed.

A request for video evidence has been made but no video evidence has been available to view.

I request that the reduced fee time be extended in order for the video to be viewed first.

I welcome your reply to this email during the course of today/tomorrow to confirm this.
"


Think it may be a lost cause, just bugs me that its a cash cow for them - rather than doing something to stop the issue.






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stamfordman
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 16:27
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How fast were you driving at the time?
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