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NIP 49MPH in a 40, Speeding NIP - how to respond?
Mr Incredible
post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16
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Hi All,

Looks like a good site and hopefully there are some clever guys and gals on here.

Here's my dilema;

Today I recieved an NIP stating 49 in a 40.

It relates to the A217 Banstead and it was a stationary GATSO.

So far I have written an email to surrey safety camer partnership asking for any evidence they have because even though I don't recall the incident I believe we were sharing driving duties that day.

Am I on the righty track so far?
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post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16
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AFCNEAL
post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:32
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
Hi All,

Looks like a good site and hopefully there are some clever guys and gals on here.

Here's my dilema;

Today I recieved an NIP stating 49 in a 40.

It relates to the A217 Banstead and it was a stationary GATSO.

So far I have written an email to surrey safety camer partnership asking for any evidence they have because even though I don't recall the incident I believe we were sharing driving duties that day.

Am I on the righty track so far?


Hopefully you didn't ask for 'evidence' (which you're not entitled to unless going NG) but 'photographs to aid in the indentification of the driver' (which they usually provide but aren't obliged). BUT, if it is a GATSO apart from perhaps a silhouette it will be rear facing and many not help you. Fill in the NIP wizard for better advice - did you receive the NIP within 14 days for example? If you didn't it's a different issue (maybe) - if you did you'll have a hard job (maybe) convincing a magistrate you couldn'r remember (maybe)!


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mrh3369
post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:37
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You must reply within 28 days naming all possible drivers, this speed is well within the limits for a speed awareness course if the driver has not done one in the last 3 years so try to work out who it was as failing to id the driver could leave you looking at 6 points and a £500 fine.


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nemo
post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 21:13
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
Am I on the righty track so far?

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
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Jlc
post Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 22:12
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
So far I have written an email to surrey safety camer partnership asking for any evidence they have because even though I don't recall the incident I believe we were sharing driving duties that day.

So you know the possible drivers? Have you spoken to them?

As already warned failing to notify is a more serious offence. If you do receive 'evidence' (Should have asked for photos to help identify driver) it's unlikely to help you identify the driver as it will be shots of the rear of the car. However, usually the shots will allow you to confirm the secondary check of the speed by the lines on the road.

You are not entitled to evidence unless pleading not guilty and going to court.

However, it's likely a Safety Awareness Course will be offered instead of points.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Mr Incredible
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:39
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[/quote]

Hopefully you didn't ask for 'evidence' (which you're not entitled to unless going NG) but 'photographs to aid in the indentification of the driver' (which they usually provide but aren't obliged). BUT, if it is a GATSO apart from perhaps a silhouette it will be rear facing and many not help you. Fill in the NIP wizard for better advice - did you receive the NIP within 14 days for example? If you didn't it's a different issue (maybe) - if you did you'll have a hard job (maybe) convincing a magistrate you couldn'r remember (maybe)!
[/quote]
Well if they come back and say we can provide evidence I'll just say well can I see the picture so I can identify who was driving for you.



QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:37) *
You must reply within 28 days naming all possible drivers, this speed is well within the limits for a speed awareness course if the driver has not done one in the last 3 years so try to work out who it was as failing to id the driver could leave you looking at 6 points and a £500 fine.

Thank you so you think 49 in a 40 won't incurr points? I have no points on my licence so no I haven't done any speed awareness or got any points in the last three years.
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Mr Incredible
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:56
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QUOTE (nemo @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Fri, 6 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
Am I on the righty track so far?

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.

Thanks I went through it but the fields aren't really pertinent to my question. The important aspects are as I've stated, I don't know who was driving and if it was me its a road well used by me so I'd be suprised if I sped, I've been using it daily for 7 years and never had a speeding ticket from there.

Also I took some pictures myself of the area today and the markings were awful, see attached, would this affect the accuracy of the camera do you think?


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mrh3369
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:58
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Its in the range where a SAC should be offered but there is no legal right to one but I would say its a 99% probability if you name the driver and do not mess around. The road markings look ok to me to do a secondary check. You need to concentrade on identifying the driver as until a driver is named or you are charged with failing to furnish everything else is academic.

This post has been edited by mrh3369: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:01


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Pete D
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:03
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It sounds as though this gatso is fairly local to you. Who set off driving that day and at what time, and what time was the alleged offence. Regards Peter
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:26
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:56) *
Also I took some pictures myself of the area today and the markings were awful, see attached, would this affect the accuracy of the camera do you think?

The accuracy of the primary evidence (i.e. the RADAR in the GATSO) has nothing to do with the lines on the road. The only question would be if the secondary check (i.e. determining how far the vehicle travelled in a given time based on the two photographs) might be harder to determine, but in reality they don't even need the markings (Google "Photogrammetry").
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Mr Incredible
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:33
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QUOTE (Pete D @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:03) *
It sounds as though this gatso is fairly local to you. Who set off driving that day and at what time, and what time was the alleged offence. Regards Peter

We did a number of trips so I don't know Peter, as I said the driving was shared.

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:26) *
QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:56) *
Also I took some pictures myself of the area today and the markings were awful, see attached, would this affect the accuracy of the camera do you think?

The accuracy of the primary evidence (i.e. the RADAR in the GATSO) has nothing to do with the lines on the road. The only question would be if the secondary check (i.e. determining how far the vehicle travelled in a given time based on the two photographs) might be harder to determine, but in reality they don't even need the markings (Google "Photogrammetry").

I just wonder which lines they picked lol, its a total mess!

QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 10:58) *
Its in the range where a SAC should be offered but there is no legal right to one but I would say its a 99% probability if you name the driver and do not mess around. The road markings look ok to me to do a secondary check. You need to concentrade on identifying the driver as until a driver is named or you are charged with failing to furnish everything else is academic.

Thanks, the problem is I don't know who was driving, so your suggesting I should incriminate myself on the basis that I might only be asked to do a speed awareness? The problem I have with that is that I've used that road for years and never speed.
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AntonyMMM
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:48
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:33) *
Thanks, the problem is I don't know who was driving, so your suggesting I should incriminate myself on the basis that I might only be asked to do a speed awareness? The problem I have with that is that I've used that road for years and never speed.


Then you need to have a serious chat with whoever else was driving that day - if neither of you is going to put their name forward, it will go to court and you need to do some in depth reading on s172 offences and the level of dilligence expected of you to convince a very sceptical bench of magistrates that you couldn't work out who was driving. If you fail it will be 6pts and a big fine.

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Mr Incredible
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:56
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:48) *
QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:33) *
Thanks, the problem is I don't know who was driving, so your suggesting I should incriminate myself on the basis that I might only be asked to do a speed awareness? The problem I have with that is that I've used that road for years and never speed.


Then you need to have a serious chat with whoever else was driving that day - if neither of you is going to put their name forward, it will go to court and you need to do some in depth reading on s172 offences and the level of dilligence expected of you to convince a very sceptical bench of magistrates that you couldn't work out who was driving. If you fail it will be 6pts and a big fine.

Are you a policeman? You seem to want to scare me into copping guilt for something I don't think I did? I came on here for help. Why would the bench of magistrates be sceptical? The picture will hopefully show ego was driving at which point the matter needn't go further but I don't know until I see it
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Pete D
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:00
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Is this a company vehicle or what. If you had answered all the questions in the NIP Wizard and opted to have the output added to your thread we would have to keep asking more questions. What time is detailed for the alleged offence. Have you spoken to the other potential drivers and worked out who was driving at what time. You do not seem to be taking this seriuosly. Regards Peter
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mrh3369
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:05
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I'm not for one moment suggesting you incriminate yourself, you would be surprised how many people can remember who is driving when they realise that 6 points and a £500 fine are heading their way for failing to furnish, no one is trying to scare you just telling you how it is, a defence to a s172 requires a very high level of effort to be put in to try and identify the driver and the punishment for failure to do so is high, you really must try to id the driver by all possible means.


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3phase278
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:10
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:56) *
Are you a policeman? You seem to want to scare me into copping guilt for something I don't think I did? I came on here for help. Why would the bench of magistrates be sceptical? The picture will hopefully show ego was driving at which point the matter needn't go further but I don't know until I see it


Mate, you've had good advice so far - you need to get your head around the fact that they are not obliged to provide any evidence unless you name yourself/someone else then you/they plead not guilty to speeding - If you are keeper of the car the onus is on yourself to remember who was driving that day and time.

If you do not name a driver, then the speeding itself becomes irrelevent (they can't prosecute if no name has been given) - but then escalates into a far more serious Fail To Furnnish charge, which will be a summons and if convicted, 6 points/circa £500 fine and a very nasty MS90 insurance code.

At the moment, the offence is likely to have been comitted, hence the NIP you have received, and someone will end up with a speed awareness course and no points if you name a driver - taking your best guess is not an offence. (Lying if you know who it definately was is, but you genuinely don't seem to know)

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Kickaha
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:12
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You are not getting the point here!

They do not have to prove who was driving, you have to name him/her. if you cannot name the driver the speeding offence becomes irrelevant and you will most likely be charged with failing to furnish. This charge is notoriously difficult to defend as the magistrates have heard all the excuses many times, and often take the view that it is just an attempt at getting off with the speeding charge.

Most on here are not police, but we think that in a case such as yours the best option is to name the most likely driver as a speed awareness course is almost a certainty.

Having said that, if you really cannot name the driver and you are sure that you can convince the magistrates that you have taken all the steps you can to do so then go for it, but be aware that should you lose then it is six points, a large fine and a big increase in insurance for the next 5 years.
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Mr Incredible
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 14:23
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QUOTE (Kickaha @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:12) *
You are not getting the point here!

They do not have to prove who was driving, you have to name him/her. if you cannot name the driver the speeding offence becomes irrelevant and you will most likely be charged with failing to furnish. This charge is notoriously difficult to defend as the magistrates have heard all the excuses many times, and often take the view that it is just an attempt at getting off with the speeding charge.

Most on here are not police, but we think that in a case such as yours the best option is to name the most likely driver as a speed awareness course is almost a certainty.

Having said that, if you really cannot name the driver and you are sure that you can convince the magistrates that you have taken all the steps you can to do so then go for it, but be aware that should you lose then it is six points, a large fine and a big increase in insurance for the next 5 years.

I see its just that I don't feel I've done anything wrong you see and the forum is called fight back but the responses this fart seem to be all ' give in'.

QUOTE (3phase278 @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 12:10) *
QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 11:56) *
Are you a policeman? You seem to want to scare me into copping guilt for something I don't think I did? I came on here for help. Why would the bench of magistrates be sceptical? The picture will hopefully show ego was driving at which point the matter needn't go further but I don't know until I see it


Mate, you've had good advice so far - you need to get your head around the fact that they are not obliged to provide any evidence unless you name yourself/someone else then you/they plead not guilty to speeding - If you are keeper of the car the onus is on yourself to remember who was driving that day and time.

If you do not name a driver, then the speeding itself becomes irrelevent (they can't prosecute if no name has been given) - but then escalates into a far more serious Fail To Furnnish charge, which will be a summons and if convicted, 6 points/circa £500 fine and a very nasty MS90 insurance code.

At the moment, the offence is likely to have been comitted, hence the NIP you have received, and someone will end up with a speed awareness course and no points if you name a driver - taking your best guess is not an offence. (Lying if you know who it definately was is, but you genuinely don't seem to know)

Thats appalling, 'take your best guess lol' I tell you what mate I've actually done this before and had the thing dropped. I just posted on here to see of there was anything new. Your staying that one should accept a inequitable and unfair penalty for fear of a worse penalty, its totally cowardly and against my nature to do that. People need to stand up and stop condoning injustice like thief by being sheeple
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baggins1234
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 14:24
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QUOTE (Mr Incredible @ Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 14:15) *
I see its just that I don't feel I've done anything wrong you see and the forum is called fight back but the responses this fart seem to be all ' give in'.


Ok...lets do it another way..yes...youre right mate...lets fight back....the system stinks..solidarity brother...heres some different advice...you plead not guilty cos its really unfair and i am telling you that youll win...youll walk away from court without a fine or anything....

Good advice? what you wanted to hear!

Great.

Um..just one problem....if (when) you lose youll walk away from Court with 6 points on your licence and a hefty fine....and wicked insurance premiums for the next 5 years...

All cos some faceless nameless person on an internet forum told you to fight it.....you think I am going to help pay your fine cos i told you you would win?

Without being funny or rude...dont just listen to the advice you want to hear...listen to the GOOD advice....which is all you have been given so far

Never start a fight your not going to win
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Pete D
post Sat, 7 Jan 2012 - 14:25
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I'll try again,
Is this a company vehicle or what. If you had answered all the questions in the NIP Wizard and opted to have the output added to your thread we would have to keep asking more questions. What time is detailed for the alleged offence. Have you spoken to the other potential drivers and worked out who was driving at what time. You do not seem to be taking this seriuosly. Regards Peter
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