Rental Car with PCN from GEMINI |
Rental Car with PCN from GEMINI |
Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 11:15
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
Hi,
last night driver of rented vehicle received a PCN on private land at better extreme in walthamstow. it was dark and driver did not notice any signs. it was the first time at this location. the problem is that its a rented car and should they just send the charge to Hertz they will pay and will charge the credit card they have on file. would like to appeal this charge. any advise? This post has been edited by DotCom: Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 14:42 |
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 11:15
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 11:54
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
Firstly edit your post now. NEver say who teh driver was - always refer to the Driver and the Keeper as appropriate
If it's a rental car, then the notice to Keeper will go to Hertz, who should then send it back to the company that issued the PCN (who was it btw?). They then have to send you a notice to Hirer and they tend to miss important bits of paper out and shoot themselves in the foot. The charge from Hertz can be dealt with at the time but they shouldnt make one, and certainly they should not pay it. |
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 12:48
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Get editing your post as adviced, before the Edit is disabled. So you appeal AS THE KEEPER before the 28 days are up, preferably before so that it arrives on day 26. The driver reported that the signs not apparent or visible and so could not possibly form a contract with the driver.
They should then, hopefully, write to you and not Hertz. Inform Herz that you have the ticket but you are handling it. When they write back to you without contacting the DVLA then they have a problem, if the don't send a Notice to Keeper within 56 days then they have a problem. If no NTK then you keep up a letter ping pong till day 56 and then tell them to get lost. If they do perchance contact the DVLA and realise that it is a hire car then they will probably forget to include the required documents with the Notice to Hirer they send and you win. |
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 13:19
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
it was firm Gemini
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 13:53
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
IT still possible to identify that the driver is of a particular gender - edit it. Dont let any information out about the identity of the driver.
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 14:43
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
As Ostell's advised, inform Hertz you have the parking notice and are dealing with it
Tell them they must not pay it Check your contract to see EXACTLY what it says about private parking tickets Some companies still only mention traffic offences and penalty tickets from councils It's absurd that the BVRLA, the hire companies' trade association lobbied for the Protection of Freedoms Act that made them liable for private parking tickets unless they provided the hirer details More than six years later, the BVRLA has still not provided its members with model contract wording |
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Tue, 4 Dec 2018 - 15:09
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Search for posts by Dennis Basher. He did a lot of work on hire vehicles and drafted some very good letters for hire companies.
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 18:07
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
Get editing your post as adviced, before the Edit is disabled. So you appeal AS THE KEEPER before the 28 days are up, preferably before so that it arrives on day 26. The driver reported that the signs not apparent or visible and so could not possibly form a contract with the driver. They should then, hopefully, write to you and not Hertz. Inform Herz that you have the ticket but you are handling it. When they write back to you without contacting the DVLA then they have a problem, if the don't send a Notice to Keeper within 56 days then they have a problem. If no NTK then you keep up a letter ping pong till day 56 and then tell them to get lost. If they do perchance contact the DVLA and realise that it is a hire car then they will probably forget to include the required documents with the Notice to Hirer they send and you win. received back an email after submitting a representation on behalf of the driver as mentioned by above. Gemini.pdf ( 115.48K ) Number of downloads: 99 |
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 18:24
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
What, precisely, was the wording of your appeal? Hopefully, there was no mention of the driver.
Is this the first communication you have received from Gemini? Have you received a Notice to Hirer from them? -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 19:17
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
I wrote to them as follows "A parking charge notice was issued to vehicle ********* on the 03/12/2018 at 21:08 at location 0013. May i kindly bring to your attention that the driver reported that the signs were not apparent or visible in the dark. therefore could not possible form a contract with the driver at the given time."
The reply i posted before was the first communication from them. They dont yet know it was a rented vehicle. This post has been edited by DotCom: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 19:18 |
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 20:06
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So all is going according to plan. You now have a POPLA code so you write an appeal and send it so that it arrives at the last possible moment, which will be past day 56 from the parking event. The first line on the appeal will be failure to deliver a notice to keeper within 56 days.
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 20:47
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
many thanks for this. would i need to enter also the part of signage not clear?
also on their reply it says i need to appeal to popla within 28 days? This post has been edited by DotCom: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 20:50 |
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 22:46
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
That right so the date of the parking was 3rd December so the 28 days for the POPLA appeal should take it past the 56 days from the parking? I'll let you calculate.
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Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 23:52
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
Always include the state of the signs in an appeal if they're missing, unlit or unclear
Say that they are in breach of the BPA Code of Practice Para 18.2 and explain why |
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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 17:05
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
As long as you don't imply who was driving!
The 56 day 'no keeper liability' point obviously depends on the appeal coming from the keeper and the driver not being identified. |
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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 19:36
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Draft your POPLA appeal and post it here for checking.
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 08:00
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
I appealed using the POPLA code on the basis of Failure to deliver a NTK within 56 days.
Today i received back from POPLA the following defense from GEMINI. Please advise. (sorry its a long reply) A Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to vehicle registration DV1G on the 03/12/2018 at the location GLL Waltham Forest Leisure Centre, 170 Chingford Road, Walthamstow, London, E17 5AA for the contravention “No Ticket”. There are a number of clearly displayed signs at the entrance and throughout the location advising on the site regulations and parking restrictions in place. It stipulates within the signage that the car park is Pay & Display and all vehicles must display a valid ticket, permit or scratch card. Tickets or permits must be displayed clearly within the windscreen. I have noted appellant`s comments a NTK was not issued within 56 days as by law. Although I understand the point the appellant is making, unfortunately, I am unable to take the mitigating circumstances into account. Please, see the site images and photographic evidence. I am satisfied that there are a number of clearly displayed signs advising on terms and conditions of parking. Please refer to the site images; we can confirm that there is clear signage including a BPA entrance signage which is in line with accordance to the BPA code of practice. I am satisfied that there is a clearly displayed signage at the entrance and throughout the site advising on terms and conditions of parking. The car park is Pay & Display and all vehicles must have a valid ticket or permit displayed clearly within the windscreen. Whilst I appreciate the appellant’s comments I can confirm that due to the appeals and POPLA process we have not been able to issue a NTK, as the PCN was issued on the 03/12/2018 and representations were submitted on the 24/12/2018. The appeal was acknowledged and responded to on the 04/01/2019 and then subsequently the appellant evoked in the POPLA process on the 04/02/2019. I can also confirm that a satisfactory grace period of 10 minutes as per BPA code of Practice was provided which is evidential in the photographic evidence. Please see below for photographic evidence. I find that the signage at the site is sufficient enough to comply with the BPA Code of Practice and provides drivers with adequate notice of the terms and conditions. Please see attached the signage. I can confirm that the BPA entrance and the terms and conditions make motorists aware of the regulations. We can also confirm that Gemini contact information is displayed on the signage if the motorist wanted to seek further information. In this case a PCN was issued for parking in a pay and display car park without displaying appropriate authorisation. By failing to display a valid ticket, the vehicle was parked in breach of the site regulations as it was unauthorised to park there. The motorist failed to recognise the parking terms and conditions and made an assumption without checking regulations set out. It is the responsibility of the driver to be aware and comply with the restrictions at all times. As per BPA Code of Practice, “If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you.” I am satisfied that there are a number of clearly displayed signs within close proximity of the vehicle and the driver was given the opportunity to read and understand the terms and conditions of the site and to decide whether they wish to park or leave. As the driver left the vehicle unattended, he/she accepted the terms and conditions, including those for breach of contract. If the driver was in disagreement with the terms and conditions of the site or felt that the terms and conditions of the site could not be complied with, there would have been sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. The signage on site clearly states that a valid ticket must be displayed or a PCN will be issued. If the appellant believed he/she could not display a valid permit for parking, he/she should have left the site as free parking is not given on the site in question. The above location is private property and is managed by Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd on behalf of the land owner. Motorist has parked within restricted area which is owned by our client. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is therefore the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or she abides by the conditions of parking at all times. As displayed within the signage by staying at the location, the motorist accepted all of the prevailing terms and conditions of the parking contract including the charges for the breach of that contract. These signs offer the parking contract to the motorist and sets out the terms and conditions of the parking and upon which by remaining at the location, the motorist has agreed to be bound by these terms and conditions clearly show the amount which will become payable if the terms and conditions are breached. Gemini Parking Solutions fully complies with the guidelines set by that of the British Parking Association who are the regulating body for the parking industry. We find that, by failing to display a valid ticket, the motorist became liable for a parking charge notice, in accordance with the terms of parking displayed and we are satisfied that this charge has been issued correctly. The motorist parked outside of the set terms and conditions of the site and as a result the appeal was unsuccessful as the representations did not make sufficient grounds. This post has been edited by DotCom: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 08:01 |
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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 08:14
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 20 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,476 |
In addition the only evidence they have of signage submitted was this image which doesn't show at all that its on site or visible without the flash of the camera. as truly the driver clearly didn't notice the signage at all.
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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 08:46
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
They are classing the not issued within 56 days as mitigating circumstances. It is the LAW.
The mitigating circumstances response was by Gemini bleating that they couldn't issue a NTK because of the paperwork. Complaint to POPLA This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 08:48 |
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Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 11:12
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Respond to POPLA
You note with amusement the operators attempts to classify their failure to meet the requirements of POFA2012 schedule 4 ... as "mitigation" on my part. It is not mitigation. There is no keeper liability, and the operator has confirmed the reason why - no NtK was issued by them. It is impossible to find the Keeper is liable for this charge and the appeal must be upheld. |
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