PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Manchester: PCN issued while I was at the machine
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 07:23
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



I parked up in a 2 hour bay in central Manchester, wandered off to find the parking machine, couldn't get it to work, downloaded the 'pay by phone' app, set up an account etc and paid only to find a warden printing out a ticket next to my car.

I explained to him that I'd just paid but he told me that once it was in his system, he had to print it and attach it. He did point out what I already know - that if I have paid in time I would be able to appeal it. So that's what I'm going to do.

For info, to end of the observation period, time of contravention and start of my parking payment period are exactly the same.

I'm happy to go onto the provided website to put in an appeal but just wanted to check whether there were any tips etc in order to make sure I win the appeal.

Apologies for vagueness - when I normally visit Pepipoo it's for private parking issues and the advice there is not to reveal too much - I'm very happy to provide any details, photos of the PCN etc if it helps.

TIA

This post has been edited by Higs: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 07:29


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 07:23
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 08:59
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



OK, so now you need to submit an informal challenge based on what you have told us here. Include talking to the CEO, and suggest that the CEO's notes will confirm your challenge. If you still have it, include a printout of your parking payment via PbP.
Can you please also post-up the PCN here, all sides, with PCN Number, and car details blanked-out. Don't worry, the council don't spend all day and night looking at this forum, they are far too busy getting the money in !
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 09:46
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Let's see the payment record as well as PCN. Also the council pics.

It is of course best to go back to car when fiddling with pay by phone but you are allowed time to go to a machine.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited. Set uploads not to autodelete if signed up and using https://imgbb.com

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 10:01
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 08:59) *
OK, so now you need to submit an informal challenge based on what you have told us here. Include talking to the CEO, and suggest that the CEO's notes will confirm your challenge. If you still have it, include a printout of your parking payment via PbP.
Can you please also post-up the PCN here, all sides, with PCN Number, and car details blanked-out. Don't worry, the council don't spend all day and night looking at this forum, they are far too busy getting the money in !
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 09:46) *
Let's see the payment record as well as PCN. Also the council pics.
It is of course best to go back to car when fiddling with pay by phone but you are allowed time to go to a machine.
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.


Thanks both for the quick replies.
I'll attach pics of the PCN and I have a screenshot of my parking history record on the parking app. I assume I'll see the council pics when I log on to their website.
I'll host my pics on Picasa as I already have an account there. Is it best to use a URL link here or [*img] tags?


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 10:18
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



BBCode is the correct way to embed pics. Otherwise post links.

Council pics may help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 10:23
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551




OP, it's got to be asked, hasn't it, so it might as well be me:

wandered off to find the parking machine

Interesting turn of phrase to say the least.

Do you mean 'I went to the machine as directed by the traffic sign which I had consulted in order to determine the parking restrictions which applied'?

If not, then what?

Also, is the '2 hour bay' one which requires 2 hours to be bought or can lesser periods be purchased?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 10:42
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 10:23) *
OP, it's got to be asked, hasn't it, so it might as well be me:

wandered off to find the parking machine

Interesting turn of phrase to say the least.

Do you mean 'I went to the machine as directed by the traffic sign which I had consulted in order to determine the parking restrictions which applied'?

If not, then what?

Also, is the '2 hour bay' one which requires 2 hours to be bought or can lesser periods be purchased?

Well... I was parked under a sign with an arrow so I knew which way to go but I still needed to find it - how far up, which side of the street and the side view of the machine is black against a dark building at twilight in murky Manchester.

And it was an 'up to 2 hour bay' of which I bought 90mins and used ~80mins.


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 11:44
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



I still needed to find it - how far up, which side of the street

The only machine which applies is the first one reached in the direction of the arrow on the same side of the road as the sign.

But we need info e.g. PCN, photos of the vehicle in contravention and sign, GSV, confirmation and details of your PbP payment etc.

Paying more than the minimum period is in your favour.

Over to you.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 11:45
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:07
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



Here's the PCN and details of my payment.
Photos are not yet available on the council website - optimistic question but if they fail to appear in 24hours or indeed ever, does that mean I can have it cancelled?
What is GSV? (I'm sure it will be obvious when you tell me) edit - it's Google Street View, isn't it? I'll add that in the next hour.












This post has been edited by Higs: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:09


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:12
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Well there shouldn't be any problem as the payment time is the same as the contravention time. You can't be in contravention.

This is assuming they are the same dates - why are you blanking dates?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:56
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:12) *
Well there shouldn't be any problem as the payment time is the same as the contravention time. You can't be in contravention.

This is assuming they are the same dates - why are you blanking dates?

They are the same dates. I've only blanked them out on the advice above to blank the PCN number. If I'd left in date, time and location it would be pretty obvious which PCN it was (if Manchester Council are scouring Pepipoo).

And here's the Google info. I was parked outside Sam's Chop House in the bay where the Ford is badly parked (great pub and one of the first I'll be back in when I can), parking meter was up the street.







This post has been edited by Higs: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 13:58


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 14:05
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



No need to blank details for council PCNs. They must follow process and in any case have many 1000s of PCNs to manage a year. Reading about a case is of no help to them if it is open to cancellation.

I also assume the car reg you bought the session for is the same as the one on the PCN.

In this case I would send a simple challenge:

Dear parking,

I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

As you can see from the attached receipt, I had bought a parking session that covers the time on the PCN.

I look forward to your early cancellation of this PCN.

With thanks,



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 16:24
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Not so fast.....

What about the inconsistencies?

Sign in GSV states as highlighted:
2. “Pay at machine” may be varied to any of the following or any appropriate combination of the following—
(a) “Pay here at machine”
(b) “Pay at machine across road”
© “Pay at machine opposite”
(d) “Pay at machine” and a location
(e) “Pay at” and a description of the ticket machine in any coloured letters
(f) “Display ticket”
(g) “Pay by phone” and a telephone number and “or text” and a text number and “quoting location” and a location number
(h) “Pay by phone” and a telephone number and “quoting location” and a location number
....
Where the legend refers to a ticket machine, the legend may include an arrow pointing horizontally to the left or to the right,

The OP used one on the other side of the road which is not within the meaning of the sign, which, by the way, states 'Display ticket' which is confirmed by the PCN whose grounds DO NOT permit PbP.

OP, some more thought is needed before firing off what would be a premature challenge.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 16:35
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



We've looked at Manchester before - the Paybyphone system applies across all the city centre pay and display zones/bays.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:01
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



With respect, their practice is not the issue, the sign conveys the meaning that ONLY pay and display is permitted and to be obtained from a machine on that side of the road in the direction indicated.

But there isn't one. So, b****r PbP, the council must make payment facilities available and they haven't. There's nothing in Pall Mall or Sussex, it's a joke. Frankly, IMO with that sign a motorist could be forgiven for being away from their vehicle for 10 minutes and then returning with a headache and still be parked lawfully. PbP is simply the last throw of the OP's dice as they wished to park(and not drive away as would be their only other option) and so took a leap - both of faith and across the road - to find a machine which in the end didn't b****y work.

Good luck Manchester if they think that pursuing this would get anything other than a b********g from the adj.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:02
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Higs
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:03
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 183
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Member No.: 11,800



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 16:24) *
Not so fast.....
OP, some more thought is needed before firing off what would be a premature challenge.
Oops - already appealed through the website with stamfordman's wording and a bit about the conversation with the CEO

I'm sure it will be fine and will update here with my success soon I hope!


--------------------
is very grateful to Pepipoo but wishes 'the driver' didn't keep sending me back here...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:08
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (Higs @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:03) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 16:24) *
Not so fast.....
OP, some more thought is needed before firing off what would be a premature challenge.
Oops - already appealed through the website with stamfordman's wording and a bit about the conversation with the CEO

I'm sure it will be fine and will update here with my success soon I hope!

Wouldn't worry too much.
While HCA is right, there are many cases where councils have lost with time to pay and machines not being where they ought.
One of two things will happen, council will accept that you paid and no worries.
Or they will reject.... and we can work towards an eventual win at adjudication if needed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:13
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Yes don't worry - HCA is having a bit of rant although of course the signage should be better but Manchester just hasn't upgraded its P&D bay signs to include pay by phone and location, which a lot of councils in London do. The instructions for PbP on the machine are clear and if you bought a session for the right location (another factor) and car then this is no contravention and almost certainly a simple matter of the CEO noting no live session but when issued the PCN shows the same time as a live session.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:15
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:40
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



I'm on a ranting roll.....l

Whether a machine which has no bearing on the legalities of matters carries a PbP sign is ...

And if a council 'hasn't upgraded it's P&D signs', then it has no authority to penalise motorists who in good faith act upon what those signs mean as opposed to what the council would like them to mean. FFS, councils don't accept motorists 'interpreting' traffic signs in their favour, so why the hell should councils be allowed to do so?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 18:45
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 25 Feb 2021 - 17:40) *
I'm on a ranting roll.....l

Whether a machine which has no bearing on the legalities of matters carries a PbP sign is ...

And if a council 'hasn't upgraded it's P&D signs', then it has no authority to penalise motorists who in good faith act upon what those signs mean as opposed to what the council would like them to mean. FFS, councils don't accept motorists 'interpreting' traffic signs in their favour, so why the hell should councils be allowed to do so?

+1
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 17:15
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here