PCN for Yellow Box Junction, 31 - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Options

[dar1]

I have today received a notice from London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham claiming that I liable to a penalty charge with respect to my vehicle for an alleged traffic contravention: 31 - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

Two still images were provided on the form and, despite the incident occurring over a week ago, it is rather fresh in my mind. I recall entering the Box Junction and paying attention to the road ahead - traffic was moving and, I estimated that I would clear the junction with no problem. Unfortunately, after I had entered the Box Junction a van elected to queue jump and cut ahead of the vehicles ahead of me, this resulted in my vehicle being caught in the box Junction.

I have appealed the notice highlighting the footage to the issuing authority and kindly pointed out that the offence is only committed if I enter the junction when my exit is blocked. The footage (https://lbhf.xrxpsc.com/OCMLive/App_Themes/swf/flayr.swf?movie=~/GetVideo.aspx&color_background=333333&color_controls=f0f0f0&name=Video%20Evidence&controls=show&autoplay=false&buffer=true) - clearly shows that had the van not queue jumped, I would have cleared the box junction.

The location of the Box Junction is Tolgarth Road J/W Butterwick

The incident was one that I remembered as I had attended the RAF Centenary Celebration in London and at the time of the incident had my Mother-in-Law together with my family in the vehicle. Having had the queue jump occur forcing me to stop in the Yellow Box Junction, I uttered an expletive that resulted in my wife hitting my leg, kindly reminding me that her mom was in the car.

I do hope that you are able to see the footage and would appreciate your views.

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[John U.K.]

Date of PCN?
Your video link not working... Stamfordman here is the expert at posting these.

As usual, for best advice also post up here all sides of the PCN and GSV(Google Street View ) link to the location.

Try this:

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems. Thera are other sites, such as Flickr (where the BBcodes are concealed behind the curly arrow (click on it) for sharing), which enable you to paste the BBCodes into your post here.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image - beginning with IMG and ending /IMG (include all the square brackets [ ] ), and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.

Redact/obscure name, address, PCN number and reg.mark.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 20:52

[dar1]

Google Street View for the location: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4914114,-...3312!8i6656
The Lane that the White Van is seen in would be the lane that I was looking to enter.






The following image shows my vehicle travelling into he Box Junction behind the white van - you can see a silver coloured van on the screen, this vehicle cuts across the lane taking out my exit from the junction:-

[stamfordman]

kindly pointed out that the offence is only committed if I enter the junction when my exit is blocked.

No - the contravention is made out if you stop owing to the presence of stationary vehicles. The Highway Code of course advises against entering without a clear exit but it isn't a contravention to do so on its own.

Then as we and adjudicators say, each case turns on its merits, and if someone swerved in and took your space and you stopped for a moving vehicle then that can mean you are not in contravention, and indeed how I won a case against TFL that got me involved with the forum.

The video is the key.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 22:12

[dar1]

As stated, the Silver Van jumps across the lane - to enters the junction from the same road only it is in the wrong lane and cuts in - that is not something that I could foresee - if you remove the silver van, you will see that I would not have blacked the junction. At the time of entering, my route was calculated and there was room for me to clear the junction. It is owning to the presence of another road user who changes lane, thus taking my exit route that causes me to stop. It is not an error in my ability to read the road ahead.

All vehicles were moving at the time - unfortunately, the video link did not work. It clearly shows that there are no stationery vehicles when I enter the junction - they only become stationery after the queue jumper causes us to stop.
The time on the images is captured that show the split second fact that the van jumps across lanes.

This post has been edited by dar1: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 22:23

[stamfordman]

PM me the details and I'll see if I can get the video. If it's not there you must get it at some point if you want to follow through an appeal.

You must post the PCN - use a site such as Imgur or Flickr to host pics, and if you can find it post the BBCode links.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 22:31

[stamfordman]

I must say I can't see any issues with van taking your space. This is a location we see often and it's a nasty one - you had to move across rather than get stuck, but these right bend boxes are difficult to judge.

[dar1]

The silver van comes from the nearside into the lane that I am seeking to enter into. As the junction is on a bend - the van is not seen until the moves into the lane I am positioned correctly to enter.
As stated, I enter the box junction and there is no stationery vehicles - had the van not cut across the lane, I would not have been caused to stop in the Box Area.

The stated contravention states: You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. I entered when my lane was clear - my route was obstructed as a result of another road user changing lanes.

As I had not entered under the conditions of the route ahead being blocked, the fact that I am then caused to stop does not mean that the offence is complete.

This post has been edited by dar1: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 22:57

[stamfordman]

Yes i see but you were not a vehicle directly affected and you took a risk, as many of us do driving in London.

No your exit wasn't clear when you entered but it is true that Hammersmith has guidance -or did have - on making allowances for such judgement as you made.

The wording of the contravention is no doubt deemed compliant.

here's some reading:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...14031217350.pdf

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&a...Na1u1_wax3_9yiM

[dar1]

Thank you for the links - I believe that the document that explains what the camera operator should consider is relevant - I have lifted a portion of that:-

Therefore the evidence, we as CCTV enforcement officers need as a minimum, will be to capture the vehicle entering, and showing they stopped in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles. all at the same time, and that they were not making a right turn as allowed in the exemption (4 basic criteria). The entry point onto the box is important to capture at the same time as the traffic conditions beyond the box, as this is the point of no return when vehicle drivers make their decision to cross.

As stated, at the point of entering (the point of no return) - I had calculated a space my vehicle would have gone into and, as a result, would not have seen me stop in the box. The fact that the silver van cuts into my lane is not something that I could foresee and resulted in the space I had calculated being taken.
From the quote, the conditions ahead at the point the vehicle enters the junction should be noted as that would be the time that the driver makes their decision.

[PASTMYBEST]

I personally am wary of this decision. IMO this is a gyratory system. But I'm not an adjudicator

2180148403

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Talgarth Road at the junction with Butterwick at 3.47pm on 26 January 2018.
Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.
Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.
Mr Bennett appeals because he says that the car entered the box to make a right turn out of the box and that the vehicle stopped in the box due to other traffic waiting to complete the right turn.
I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case. The footage shows that Mr Bennett's car stopped within the box to make a right turn out of the box and was prevented from completing the right turn by a stationary vehicle in front which had also made the right turn.
The Council, in its case summary, states that Mr Bennett's vehicle was turning right but that it was not stopped by oncoming traffic.
The wording of the exemption in Paragraph 7(2) is expressed in the alternative. The exemption applies to allow the vehicle to stop in the box for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. In other words, it is not necessary for both conditions to exist for the exemption to apply. It is sufficient that the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn. That is, in my judgement, the correct reading of the statutory provision. There is no requirement for the exit to be blocked by oncoming traffic. It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Whilst I accept that the vehicle in front of Mr Bennett's had technically completed the right turn, it would make a nonsense of Paragraph 7(2) for the right turn exemption not to apply just because the next vehicle making the right turn manages to clear the box rather than having to stop within it.

Its not the only one

2180108271
2170442131

[John U.K.]

IMO this is a gyratory system - PMB

Living, as I do, in H&F, it is almost always referred to as the 'Hammersmith gyratory' in traffic reports and the like: occasionally as the 'Hammersmith one-way system'.

What is the difference between a gyratory and a roundabout?

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 09:11

[hcandersen]

IMO the evidence does not support the OP’s contention. They could not have had any realistic expectation based on visible traffic conditions, wishful thinking yes!

One adjudicator’s decision does not a mindset make. IMO, this Key Case is more indicative of adjudicators’ views:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...14031218240.pdf

[PASTMYBEST]

IMO this is a gyratory system - PMB

Living, as I do, in H&F, it is almost always referred to as the 'Hammersmith gyratory' in traffic reports and the like: occasionally as the 'Hammersmith one-way system'.

What is the difference between a gyratory and a roundabout?

schedule 9 part 7(11)(3)

The right turn exemption does not apply on a gyratory system

7(11)(6)(b)

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/made

IMO the evidence does not support the OP’s contention. They could not have had any realistic expectation based on visible traffic conditions, wishful thinking yes!

One adjudicator’s decision does not a mindset make. IMO, this Key Case is more indicative of adjudicators’ views:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...14031218240.pdf

HCA

I think you and I are in agreement on this, (as per the opening line of my post) though I am not sure your link has any relevance to the validity of the right turn exemption

[hcandersen]

Agreed the Key Case does not explore all aspects, including exemptions.

But none applies here as far as I can see. The vehicle ahead had completed its manoeuvre and was no longer ‘turning right’ and it’s a gyratory.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 10:03

[PASTMYBEST]

Agreed the Key Case does not explore all aspects, including exemptions.

But none applies here as far as I can see. The vehicle ahead had completed its manoeuvre and was no longer ‘turning right’ and it’s a gyratory.

We differ in onw aspect. I could see the argument having merit, taking the purposive view as SSD did in the quoted case, but that it is a gyratory so no exemption was ignored

[hcandersen]

I am against advising the OP to go to adjudication effectively to test an argument about the ‘purpose’ of the legislation. IMO, their case is no different to the majority we see at this location: they made a mistake and we cannot rewrite the legislation to make this one with no consequences.

[PASTMYBEST]

I am against advising the OP to go to adjudication effectively to test an argument about the ‘purpose’ of the legislation. IMO, their case is no different to the majority we see at this location: they made a mistake and we cannot rewrite the legislation to make this one with no consequences.

No we cannot. Nor for that matter can an adjudicator. Their interpretation of the law however carries more weight than ours and it has been shown that at least on 3 occasions this interpretation has been made.


I have made clear, as have you that we do not think it is a sound argument it might find favour. My feeling in this is give the OP the information and our take on it then let them decide. Its a double or quits bet in the end

[hcandersen]

I understand, but unfortunately OPs have a habit of asking our advice on their chances at adj!

IMO, double or quits implies 50:50, but I think their chances would be much less.



This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 10:59

[stamfordman]

Worth making an appeal based on H&F's guidelines along the lines of:


5. Steady slow moving traffic over a box junction is probably the most difficult scenario to deal with especially if we are dealing with multiple lanes. Somebody suddenly slowing down or stopping short for no good reason may cause a judgement problem, when drivers in the vehicles behind, looking in advance of the vehicle in front of them thought they had judged it correctly and would make it off the box. An example maybe when there are 3 empty car spaces in one lane on the exit side of the box junction and 3 cars start to travel over the box towards them in one line. The first 2 cars may use up all 3 spaces due to leaving large gaps between them. This would be unfair to the third car driver who thought they would all fit in. The critical factor here is that the drivers have a reasonable line of sight to make their judgements. We should apply discretion. We have to weigh up the good momentum of traffic travelling freely over box junctions while not trying to make people treat it like a stop line or give way line unnecessarily. In time deterrence should make more drivers aware of how to treat their approach to a box junction.

1. If 2 cars travel across a box junction in their own lanes to go straight ahead, but there is only one space in one of the lanes on the exit of the box, one car may cross from one lane to the other to get in front of the other car already in that lane and take the space. Therefore the car in the correct lane with the space originally, had reason to believe they could get to it, before being “cut up” by the other car. Bikes could also cause this scenario even though they are smaller.

2. A car travels across the box junction as there is space on the other side, but a Bus pulls out from a side junction and stops on the box and obstructs it or uses the space. This is not the fault of the car. The Bus may actually be eligible for a PCN if it has stopped and the exit is not clear due to stationary vehicles, but this is as long as there was no exemption for the bus in a TMO that might still be in place, which allows it to stop on the box whilst making a turn. Boxes put in place to help the flow of Buses specifically, need their TMO’s to be double checked.