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M25 - variable speed camera - doesn't feel right
GreyWolf
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:13
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2018
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M25 Motorway, Jnc 23-24
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Driving in plenty of time for a meeting, not in a hurry (so much so I remember parking up for 20 minutes round the corner from my destination when I got there). Clocked at 65 by a variable speed camera where the speed limit was apparently 50.

I must confess that I thought the temporary speed limits were advisory, managing traffic flow (not a defence, I appreciate). There was an incident several miles ahead (in the end all of the traffic was filtered into lane 4 to get past a truck / car accident blocking the other 3 carriageways). However, this was way ahead of that, and, as normal on that section, the speed limits were different from gantry to gantry.

My issue is that I'm a cautious driver. I am concerned that these 'smart motorway' signs, which make sense for managing flow, are being used to convict on speed. For example, driving on there this week I was startled, coming round a bend, to see a 40 limit in force - the bend meant that the truck had partially hidden it until I was right on it. I and the lanes either side were all doing 60 - and an artic right behind me meant I'd have risked him ploughing into me if I'd braked down to 40 in time. It's almost impossible not to be caught by them if this is their approach - contrast that with a 'normal' roadworks where the 50 limit is flagged well in advance.

Which brings me back to last week - I'm concerned that they're enforcing a limit which a) may have been the first posted limit change, b) wasn't necessarily the same as the one before and c) (linked to b) there is limited time to reduce speed to get within the limit without being dangerous.

So....
- do I fill in the NIP or wait for something by recorded delivery?
- do I ask for more details on the prevailing limits either side, exactly which camera/gantry it was so I can revisit to check sightlines etc?

Anyone else feel these variable signs are being misused and creating dangerous situations / are likely to cause accidents?

Any thoughts appreciated - sorry for the long post!

Wolf


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:13:47 +0000

This post has been edited by GreyWolf: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:20
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post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:13
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:28
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QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:13) *
.- do I fill in the NIP or wait for something by recorded delivery?

Well not naming the driver is very likely to see you getting a failing to furnish charge added. Whatever to do, don't ignore it.

QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:13) *
.- do I ask for more details on the prevailing limits either side, exactly which camera/gantry it was so I can revisit to check sightlines etc?

At this stage they are only asking for the name of the driver, requests for evidence are unlikely to be entertained.
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peterguk
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:29
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What are you wanting by Recorded Delivery?

You can ask for any photos to assist in identification of the driver. You may receive a photo, and it may show speed data. It might not. They are very, very rarely wrong. You'll certainly get no other info. at this stage regarding speeds displayed on other gantries.

In any case, you need to name yourself as the driver within 28 days.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:30


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GreyWolf
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:37
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We've had post stolen in recent weeks (we know as other have had the same and credit cards turning up we haven't registered for). I don't see how they can chase without confirming delivery was all.

My main concern is the safety around these cameras if they're being used to catch speeders - or misused (I've read about the 10 second rule but it takes longer than that for a flow of heavy traffic including HGVs to slow down to the new limit just imposed).

G
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peterguk
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:50
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QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:37) *
I don't see how they can chase without confirming delivery was all.


The law assumes the post is delivered 2 business days following posting. Unless you prove to the contrary.

QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:37) *
My main concern is the safety around these cameras


Irrelevant to the allegation.


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Logician
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:56
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QUOTE
I must confess that I thought the temporary speed limits were advisory, managing traffic flow (not a defence, I appreciate).


The rule of thumb to remember is that enforceable limits have a red circle round the speed, advisory ones do not.

You will get nothing by recorded delivery, people tend to think such a delivery is going to be bad news and refuse to accept it. Ask for "any available photographs to assist identification of the driver" and you will very likely get a picture, as this is a newish section it may well have HADECS 3 cameras which show the limit as well. It can be difficult to constantly watch for changing limits while dealing with all the traffic, but that is the way things are.


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Jlc
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:02
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Slowing from 60 to 40 doesn't take an age and doesn't require an anchor to be deployed.

For a decreasing limit there will be at least a 10 second delay before enforcing that reduced limit. (See 4(3) here)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:05


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 20:37) *
I don't see how they can chase without confirming delivery was all.


The law assumes the post is delivered 2 business days following posting. Unless you prove to the contrary.



Which would require perjury...


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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GreyWolf
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 21:02) *
Slowing from 60 to 40 doesn't take an age and doesn't require an anchor to be deployed.

For a decreasing limit there will be at least a 10 second delay before enforcing that reduced limit. (See 4(3) here)


You’re going to assume I’m disagreeing because I object to the NIP. I’m not bothered about that and came on here to politely ask as I am interested in the wider views on the usage of these varying signs as I consider them dangerous - and note from a quick search online that their usage as such is relatively recent.

In a flow of traffic yesterday doing 60, rounding a bend with the 40 sign not far ahead, not a single vehicle slowed and I contend it would be dangerous to be the only one to do so. All 4 lanes doing the same speed and I had an hgv to my left and one behind. He nearly joined me when I touched the brakes. I suspect the answer is a camera onboard to keep myself sane.

Thanks for replying.

G
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The Rookie
post Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 09:21
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QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 23:20) *
not a single vehicle slowed and I contend it would be dangerous to be the only one to do so.

Its a shame you don't see the spectacular irony in that.

Seriously it wouldn't be dangerous at the rate of deceleration required, be Shaun not the other sheep.


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mickR
post Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 11:09
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Id also point out that there is only one camera at that location and it is clearly visible for quite some distance. Had the limit dropped from say 60 to 50 it would be clearly obvious and would have plenty if time to slow before it was active. Saying that I've seen plenty ignore and get flashed, i assume thinking no camera as not overhead.

Id also point out that there is only one camera at that location and the gantry and signs are clearly visible for quite some distance. Had the limit dropped from say 60 to 50 it would be clearly obvious and would have plenty if time to slow before it was active. Saying that I've seen plenty ignore and get flashed, i assume thinking no camera as not overhead.
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The Slithy Tove
post Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 13:10
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QUOTE (GreyWolf @ Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 22:20) *
I’m not bothered about that and came on here to politely ask as I am interested in the wider views on the usage of these varying signs as I consider them dangerous - and note from a quick search online that their usage as such is relatively recent.

The place for such "wider views" is the Flame Pit, which I guess is why it's ended up here. The speeding forum deals with the actualities of a particular incident, your legal obligations, and any potential legal avenues you can take. In the same way, we do not "judge" OPs and tell them they're idiots for, say, doing 120 in a 50 zone.

This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 13:12
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