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Possible Driving Without an MOT, Stupid Decision
Danny884400
post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 18:41
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Hello all,

I've been a member for a long time but have never needed to post for assistance. I think I might now need advice.

My MOT expired on the 24th of January, I needed to replace some bushes and the lower suspension arms. As a result the MOT expired. The vehicle is kept on my drive and has been there (as always) since it expired. I have an MOT booked this Friday.

Earlier I decided to take a stupid risk popping to the pharmacy for medication for an abscess. Normally I respect the law and would never dream of driving if I might have had alcohol or if any of my documentation is out of date etc. I appreciate non of this is an excuse let alone a reason and ultimately I did commit the offence.

I was coming back home and a traffic police car was coming towards me. The driver definitely looked at me as I drove by, so I gather the ANPR in their vehicle probably alerted them to my expired MOT. They did not stop me at the scene. I think they may have been on a call as the police car (a Focus hatchback) had officers sitting in the back which is normally kind of unusual. I was literally 10 seconds from home, and I expected them to turn around and stop me and was actually surprised that they didn't.

I am not exactly sure of how the NIP process works in this scenario and for this particular offence? Even though I was not stopped at the time is it possible that the police could send me an NIP in the post? Also, from what I have read online, it appears that driving without an MOT is a non-endorsable offence and carries a fine of £100? Do you know if that is still the case right now because a lot of the information online is quite a few years old. Or at least what I've been able to find is.

Thank you very much for your time.

Dan
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post Wed, 31 Jan 2018 - 18:41
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The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 08:22
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 23:58) *
It could be that the car was being taken to a place of repair prior to being taken for an annual test, maybe to get parts replaced, new tyres etc? All quite valid reasons for being on the road without a valid certificate.

But could the OP prove it if asked, and not risk PCOJ?
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Danny884400
post Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 16:00
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Thank you for the further replies and for your time everyone!

I took the car in for the MOT as planned and it sailed through. The tester said it was obviously well looked after and maintained. On the way home for a short while I had a traffic police car behind me (BMW 530d) and was convinced they'd stop me as their system probably still shows mine as having no MOT. But they weren't bothered at all and after a mile or so they overtook me and carried on down the road. Like has been suggested maybe there is a grace period. Maybe not 'officially' but unofficially they generally don't stop cars with say an MOT expired less than 14 days ago etc or only if the vehicle has no insurance as well. My brother in law is a special constable and he occasionally goes out with the traffic units. I might ask him!

Because of some posts mentioning insurance I decided to check that too (mostly out of curiosity). I was surprised there is only a brief mention of it where it says should you make a claim for an accident happening while driving without an MOT then you are still covered unless the car is declared a total loss. In that situation it says their valuation will take into account the value of your car without an MOT and they can deduct up to 50% of their original valuation of your car if it had had an MOT.

Kind regards all
Dan


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DancingDad
post Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 17:01
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MOT details are online as fast as MOT inspector enters and DVLA updates, which can certainly be within a few minutes.
I've taxed a motor within 15 minutes of passing.
When this feeds into police car systems, dunno
And if you had been pulled on the way back, nice clean bit of paper with pass printed out on it to show.
I quite enjoy that feeling and get a vague sense of disappointment when they ignore me smile.gif

You never know with cops following you.
May just be going the same way.
May have clocked no MOT and be following to see if you are going to do anything silly knowing they are there.
May have clocked and couldn't be bothered with the paperwork/no need to catch up on targets/late for dinner.
May have had their system update showing you legal.
May not have had ANPR turned on (is this possible??)

One thing this thread does show, is that the guilty flee where no man pursueth smile.gif
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Churchmouse
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:15
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QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Fri, 2 Feb 2018 - 08:22) *
QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 1 Feb 2018 - 23:58) *
It could be that the car was being taken to a place of repair prior to being taken for an annual test, maybe to get parts replaced, new tyres etc? All quite valid reasons for being on the road without a valid certificate.

But could the OP prove it if asked, and not risk PCOJ?

The more relevant point would be that the police would have to stop him in order to ascertain whether or not the vehicle was being taken to or from a pre-booked MOT, or for any of the other purposes listed in the regulation (The Motor Vehicles (Tests) Regulations), and they did not do so.

QUOTE
6.(2) Pursuant to section 44(6) the Secretary of State hereby exempts from section 44(1) the use of a vehicle—

(a)(i) for the purpose of submitting it by previous arrangement for, or bringing it away from, an examination, or
(ii) in the course of an examination, for the purpose of taking it to, or bringing it away from, any place where a part of the examination is to be or, as the case may be, has been, carried out, or of carrying out any part of the examination, the person so using it being either—
(A) an examiner, or a Ministry Inspector or an inspector appointed by a designated council, or
(B) a person acting under the personal direction of an examiner, a Ministry Inspector or a designated Council, or
(iii) where a test certificate is refused on an examination—
(A) for the purpose of delivering it by previous arrangement at, or bringing it away from, a place where work is to be or has been done on it to remedy for a further examination the defects on the ground of which the test certificate was refused; or
(B) for the purpose of deivering it, by towing it, to a place where the vehicle is to be broken up;
(b) for any purpose for which the vehicle is authorised to be used on roads by an order under section 42;
© where the vehicle has been imported into Great Britain, for the purpose of its being driven after arrival in Great Britain on the journey from the place where it has arrived in Great Britain to a place of residence of the owner or driver of the vehicle;
(d) for the purpose of removing it in pursuance of section 3 of the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978, of moving or removing it in pursuance of regulations under section 20 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 as altered by the Removal and Disposal of Vehicles (Alteration of Enactments) Order 1967, or of removing it from a parking place in pursuance of an order under section 31(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967, an order relating to a parking place designated under section 35 thereof, or a provision of a designation order having effect by virtue of section 39(2) thereof;
(e) where the vehicle has been detained or seized by a police constable, for police purposes connected with such detention or seizure;
(f) where the vehicle has been removed, detained or seized or condemned as forfeited under any provision of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 for any purpose authorised by an officer of Customs and Excise;
(g) for the purpose of testing it by a motor trader as defined in section 16(8) of the Vehicles (Excise) Act 1971, to whom a trade licence has been issued under that section, during the course of, or after completion of repairs carried out to that vehicle by that motor trader.

The OP's question was whether or not the police could send him an NIP in the post as a result of having detected his horrible crime. I would suggest that without a stop or some other way of ascertaining the relevant facts, they could not know if the journey was exempt or not, and they cannot simply assume it wasn't and send out an NIP. The situation would be different if the legislation had been drafted differently, however.

[Note: The regulations quoted above are the 1981 regulations, which have been amended since the enactment of the RTA 1988 (which apparently changed the test certificate section from s.44 to s.47), but the amended regulations are not available online (at least not anywhere I can find them).]

--Churchmouse

This post has been edited by Churchmouse: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:16
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southpaw82
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:23
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:15) *
The OP's question was whether or not the police could send him an NIP in the post as a result of having detected his horrible crime. I would suggest that without a stop or some other way of ascertaining the relevant facts, they could not know if the journey was exempt or not, and they cannot simply assume it wasn't and send out an NIP. The situation would be different if the legislation had been drafted differently, however.

I don’t believe any NIP is required for that offence. That aside, the police could prosecute for the no MOT offence and it would be up to the defendant to establish that the defence of a pre-booked MOT etc was made out. It would be somewhat foolish, and one would expect the police to question the defendant first to rule out any such defence but saying they cannot proceed is going too far.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Danny884400
post Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 19:16
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Wow.. this post seems to have started a really interesting debate. Thank you to ALL who have replied and I have enjoyed reading your replies thus far. I love the "horrible crime" comment! laugh.gif

Although I have been a long time reader of this forum my knowledge on the law is considerably less than you guys. With that said, one of the things that struck me on Wednesday (as has also been said in this thread) was that if they didn't stop me at the time, then for them to send an NIP later would be to assume I was using the car illegally and not within the criteria allowing legal use of the car on the road without an MOT. Surely this would be difficult for them to establish later on and this might be one of the reasons every post online I can find from someone given an FPN for this offence was pulled over at that time.

Although, I guess it would be up to me to prove I was legally allowed to use the car on the road without an MOT, so a pass or fail certificate from an MOT centre or a receipt from a garage would probably be sufficient.

Hope everyone has a good weekend. Have a beer on me! biggrin.gif

Dan


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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 01:02
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:15) *
The OP's question was whether or not the police could send him an NIP in the post as a result of having detected his horrible crime. I would suggest that without a stop or some other way of ascertaining the relevant facts, they could not know if the journey was exempt or not, and they cannot simply assume it wasn't and send out an NIP. The situation would be different if the legislation had been drafted differently, however.

I don’t believe any NIP is required for that offence. That aside, the police could prosecute for the no MOT offence and it would be up to the defendant to establish that the defence of a pre-booked MOT etc was made out. It would be somewhat foolish, and one would expect the police to question the defendant first to rule out any such defence but saying they cannot proceed is going too far.

I know as a fact that the police can and do pursue MOT offences where the driver was not stopped at the time. Section 172 can be used in relation "to any offence against any ... enactment relating to the use of vehicles on roads" to identify the driver, and this is a fixed penalty notice offence. Of course, if the recipient of such a notice provides evidence that the pre-booked test exemption applies and that information checks out, that will be the end of the matter, but it doesn't stop the police from sending out the paperwork in the first place.

On the other hand, at least some forces have a policy of only issuing a warning (whether verbally or by post) if the MOT was less than 1 month out.
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bm1957
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 12:08
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I wrote off my motorbike 5 years ago, with MOT between 3 and 6 months out of date (my fault, completely forgot. Bike was 100% roadworthy)

Police attended but MOT was no issue for them, nor for the insurance company who paid out more than I paid for the bike.
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 18:39
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QUOTE (bm1957 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 12:08) *
I wrote off my motorbike 5 years ago, with MOT between 3 and 6 months out of date (my fault, completely forgot. Bike was 100% roadworthy)

Police attended but MOT was no issue for them, nor for the insurance company who paid out more than I paid for the bike.

The fact that the police can take action doesn't mean they will, maybe they figured you'd had enough of a bad enough already.
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 21:59
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 3 Feb 2018 - 17:15) *
The OP's question was whether or not the police could send him an NIP in the post as a result of having detected his horrible crime. I would suggest that without a stop or some other way of ascertaining the relevant facts, they could not know if the journey was exempt or not, and they cannot simply assume it wasn't and send out an NIP. The situation would be different if the legislation had been drafted differently, however.

I don’t believe any NIP is required for that offence. That aside, the police could prosecute for the no MOT offence and it would be up to the defendant to establish that the defence of a pre-booked MOT etc was made out. It would be somewhat foolish, and one would expect the police to question the defendant first to rule out any such defence but saying they cannot proceed is going too far.

You're right, I did go too far...

Always pre-book MOT appointments if planning to drive without MOT or tax. How someone is supposed to produce evidence of that appointment at some later date (no NIP requirement would mean it could be a much later date) is another question. Book by email, fax or letter? (Some MOT testing centres do allow online bookings, which presumably create a "paper" trail, so that would make the proof part easier.)

--Churchmouse
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southpaw82
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:17
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Would you not get a pass (recorded on the system) or a failure certificate? I don’t know, don’t do MoTs.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:40
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:17) *
Would you not get a pass (recorded on the system) or a failure certificate? I don’t know, don’t do MoTs.


You could get a third option which would be not getting as far as an MOT.

I've always asked the MOT station to book the vehicle in with reg number and said why, ie no tax.
They know the score, write it in their diary and you have evidence of pre-booking if needed.
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:51
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:17) *
Would you not get a pass (recorded on the system) or a failure certificate? I don’t know, don’t do MoTs.

The garage should have records for exactly that reason, normally if you call up and say you don't have an MoT and can they make a note in case you get stopped, they will write your reg and test time down in the diary. It's not unheard of for the police to turn up at a garage and ask to see the bookings diary to confirm that someone who claimed to be on their way to a pre-booked test actually had a pre-booked test.
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Harnes
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:57
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From The Mot testing guide :
Appointments made for vehicles without a current MOT certificate (which could not be legally driven to and from the testing station without an appointment) must be
recorded in writing; the record must include the vehicle's registration mark, the date and time of the appointment and the name of the person making it. The record must be kept for at least 3 months after the date of the appointment.


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Better to be 20 minutes late in this life than 20 years early into the next one !
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StuartBu
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 13:47
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QUOTE (Harnes @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:57) *
From The Mot testing guide :
Appointments made for vehicles without a current MOT certificate (which could not be legally driven to and from the testing station without an appointment) must be
recorded in writing; the record must include the vehicle's registration mark, the date and time of the appointment and the name of the person making it. The record must be kept for at least 3 months after the date of the appointment.


Surely WHEN the contact was made ( by whatever means ,phone,text or in person etc ) to make the Test Appointment should be noted as well.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:00
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (Harnes @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:57) *
From The Mot testing guide :
Appointments made for vehicles without a current MOT certificate (which could not be legally driven to and from the testing station without an appointment) must be
recorded in writing; the record must include the vehicle's registration mark, the date and time of the appointment and the name of the person making it. The record must be kept for at least 3 months after the date of the appointment.


Surely WHEN the contact was made ( by whatever means ,phone,text or in person etc ) to make the Test Appointment should be noted as well.


From what I've seen at my usual place, they use a daily planner, one A4 page per day and write each appointment in at relevant time. Usually reg number, vehicle and name, admittedly usually only first name.

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