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CCTV for parking enforcement
marklondon
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01
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Sorry if it's a silly question but I tried a forum search and couldn't find the answer.
This comment by Dastardly Dick intrigued me... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't use of CCTV for parking enforcement (except on Red Routes) banned a few years ago? "

Is this true? I got caught a few years ago in London for a parking contravention by cctv and have been nervous about even pulling over to answer the phone or check directions ever since.

Thanks
Mark

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post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01
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StuartBu
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:15
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01) *
Sorry if it's a silly question but I tried a forum search and couldn't find the answer.
This comment by Dastardly Dick intrigued me... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't use of CCTV for parking enforcement (except on Red Routes) banned a few years ago? "

Is this true? I got caught a few years ago in London for a parking contravention by cctv and have been nervous about even pulling over to answer the phone or check directions ever since.

Thanks
Mark


What was the answer given ?

Is it not something to do with CCTV not being allowed where boots on the ground could be the first cjoice of enforcement ..
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:17
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01) *
Sorry if it's a silly question but I tried a forum search and couldn't find the answer.
This comment by Dastardly Dick intrigued me... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't use of CCTV for parking enforcement (except on Red Routes) banned a few years ago? "

Is this true? I got caught a few years ago in London for a parking contravention by cctv and have been nervous about even pulling over to answer the phone or check directions ever since.

Thanks
Mark


other exceptions but basically

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/10...gulation/2/made
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marklondon
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:24
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Hi Stuart,
The answer given was "It's probably TFL. Until the OP posts docs we won't know for sure." so I wasn't sure if the rule was different in London boroughs?

Hi PMB,
Thanks for the link
That seems to say tickets must be stuck on the vehicle/given to the driver except for when parked in a bus stop/lane, on school zigzags or on a red route.
Am I reading that right or have I missed something?

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:29
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:24) *
Hi Stuart,
The answer given was "It's probably TFL. Until the OP posts docs we won't know for sure." so I wasn't sure if the rule was different in London boroughs?

Hi PMB,
Thanks for the link
That seems to say tickets must be stuck on the vehicle/given to the driver except for when parked in a bus stop/lane, on school zigzags or on a red route.
Am I reading that right or have I missed something?



no but there is also the exemptions at 10(1)(c and d) here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/10/made
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baroudeur
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:17) *
QUOTE (marklondon @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01) *
Sorry if it's a silly question but I tried a forum search and couldn't find the answer.
This comment by Dastardly Dick intrigued me... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't use of CCTV for parking enforcement (except on Red Routes) banned a few years ago? "

Is this true? I got caught a few years ago in London for a parking contravention by cctv and have been nervous about even pulling over to answer the phone or check directions ever since.

Thanks
Mark


other exceptions but basically

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/10...gulation/2/made



That only covers how a PCN may be served but there is a reference to section 10 1(b) and 1©, which is not included, stating...

Penalty charge notices — service by post

10.—(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where—

(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;

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DancingDad
post Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 14:05
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:17) *
QUOTE (marklondon @ Wed, 24 Jan 2018 - 13:01) *
Sorry if it's a silly question but I tried a forum search and couldn't find the answer.
This comment by Dastardly Dick intrigued me... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't use of CCTV for parking enforcement (except on Red Routes) banned a few years ago? "

Is this true? I got caught a few years ago in London for a parking contravention by cctv and have been nervous about even pulling over to answer the phone or check directions ever since.

Thanks
Mark


other exceptions but basically

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/10...gulation/2/made



That only covers how a PCN may be served but there is a reference to section 10 1(b) and 1©, which is not included, stating...

Penalty charge notices — service by post

10.—(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where—

(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;


You need to put the amended wording into the original General Regs.
Which amends 10-1.

Basically, CCTV only allowed for parking contraventions on Red Routes, Bus Stop/stand Clearways, ZZs outside schools
They do mention Bus Lanes but I would expect the contravention to be being in a bus lane where alternative legislation exists and would likely to be used.
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marklondon
post Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 22:45
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Thanks very much.
Does anyone know when they stopped allowing cctv for parking contraventions?
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 23:03
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 22:45) *
Thanks very much.
Does anyone know when they stopped allowing cctv for parking contraventions?


2015
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Keyser Söze
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:41
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QUOTE (marklondon @ Sat, 27 Jan 2018 - 22:45) *
Thanks very much.
Does anyone know when they stopped allowing cctv for parking contraventions?


It has not stopped. It has been limited to bus lanes (where yellow lines are in the lane), bus stops, red routes, school keep clear sections and can be used to enforce council off street car parks.

This post has been edited by Keyser Söze: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:44
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 08:39
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QUOTE (Keyser Söze @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:41) *
........and can be used to enforce council off street car parks.


Got a citation for that last please ?
It's news to me.

I can remember one case where someone had parked during charging hours and left afterwards when barriers were open, without making the payment on foot they should have.
Many times and the council sent an invoice for the amount based on CCTV/ANPR records.
But that was outside of the TMA process.
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Keyser Söze
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:09
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 08:39) *
QUOTE (Keyser Söze @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:41) *
........and can be used to enforce council off street car parks.


Got a citation for that last please ?
It's news to me.

I can remember one case where someone had parked during charging hours and left afterwards when barriers were open, without making the payment on foot they should have.
Many times and the council sent an invoice for the amount based on CCTV/ANPR records.
But that was outside of the TMA process.


Here is what permits postal penalty notices to be served based on the record of an approved device. A council's off road car parks tend to be included in its civil enforcement area. Any use of CCTV will of course need to comply with the secretary of state for transport statutory guidance. Meaning it should only be used if enforcement on foot is either difficult, sensitive or impractical.

In 2015, as a consequence of the Deregulation Act, regulations were amended to restrict the use of CCTV but the restriction applied only to contraventions occurring on a road. It did not impose any restriction on the use of CCTV relating to off road contraventions occurring in a civil enforcement area.

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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:30
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QUOTE (Keyser Söze @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:09) *
........In 2015, as a consequence of the Deregulation Act, regulations were amended to restrict the use of CCTV but the restriction applied only to contraventions occurring on a road. It did not impose any restriction on the use of CCTV relating to off road contraventions occurring in a civil enforcement area.


Hmmm
I can see where you are coming from.
Can't find anything to dispute it either biggrin.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:42
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/10...gulation/2/made

2(4)(2)

2) A civil enforcement officer who has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle may serve a penalty charge notice—

(a) by fixing it to the vehicle; or

(b) by giving it to the person appearing to the civil enforcement officer to be in charge of the vehicle.

No exemptions are listed for a regulation 9 (off road) PCN
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:55
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Thanks PBM.....

It isn't that exemptions are listed or not for a Regulation 9 PCN off road.
It is that no alternatives are given.
There are only two ways to serve, fix or hand.

Contrast to a 9A PCN where alternatives are given and that 10(1) only relates to 9A PCNs when the amendments are put in.

Was worried for a little while smile.gif

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:56
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Keyser Söze
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 12:10
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The relevant part of Regulation 10 as amended reads

QUOTE
Penalty charge notices — service by post

Regulation 10.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A) an enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where—
(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;
(b)a civil enforcement officer attempted to serve a penalty charge notice in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A but was prevented from doing so by some person; or
( c) a civil enforcement officer had begun to prepare a penalty charge notice for service in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A, but the vehicle concerned was driven away from the place in which it was stationary before the civil enforcement officer had finished preparing the penalty charge notice or had served it in accordance with regulation 9 or 9A,

and references in these Regulations to a “regulation 10 penalty charge notice” are to a penalty charge notice served by virtue of this paragraph.

(1A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in relation to a penalty charge payable in respect of a parking contravention on a road in a civil enforcement area except in the circumstances specified in regulation 9A(6)


Paragraph 1(a) makes it possible to serve a postal penalty notice based on CCTV evidence but newly inserted paragraph 1A places limitations on this in respect of contraventions occuring on a road. Regulation 10 is not amended to place limitations in respect of contraventions occurring off road.

Regulation 9 provides for off road on foot CEO penalty notices and regulation 10 makes CCTV postal penalty notices possible for off road contraventions. In reality though this is almost unheard of as off road enforcement is not usually difficult, sensitive or impractical, which it must be to justify using CCTV to enforce.

This post has been edited by Keyser Söze: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 09:41
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bama
post Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 19:48
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+1

and welcome to the forum - good to see that level of in depth knowledge

be aware that the normal M.O. on pepipoo is to see if a poster's info/assistance 'holds up'.
aka "the many eyes of pepipoo"
As financial penalties (and sometimes criminal ones) are at stake 'test by fire' is the best way to avoid someone being landed in it when their case gets to tribunal (or court).
Its nothing personal, just a method of reassurance for the posters facing penalties.

This post has been edited by bama: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 - 20:05


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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