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Hit and run..., Motorcycle hit and damaged, third party did not stop...
«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 11:24
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This is an enquiry at this stage and maybe for some advice...

I visited ASDA on Drayton High Road in Norwich (Hellesdon) yesterday at around 13:45 and parked my motorcycle in a marked out bay. CCTV shows that around 20 minutes later at 14:04, a white/silver car, possibly an Audi came in to shot on the camera and reversed in to my bike and knocked it over causing around £200 (this is only an estimate from visible damage, getting it looked at on Thursday/Friday properly) of damage. This was broad daylight, cloudy and had been raining but was not at the time. Bent kick stand, left clutch assembly and lever damaged needing to be replaced and petrol leaking from the tank (it was on its side for an hour before it was reported.

I have reported the incident to police as a fail to stop/hit and run offence as the driver took off as shown in the footage and left no details.

I have also spoken at length to ASDA staff and they showed me the stills from CCTV that proves that the car did the damage beyond all doubt. There is no registration number on the camera because it is to far away to be seen and the driver did not report the incident to the security at ASDA but instead just drove off. ASDA will not supply me with the footage using the Data Protection Act 1998 as a reason and I have no way of getting it.

I now have what is essentially a written off bike that I cannot ride and ASDA are not being very helpful and are saying that I have to wait for the Police to deal with it in which case it will end up with me waiting potentially weeks or even up to 6 months for them to do anything! ParkingEye have ANPR cameras at this site, and I have contacted them multiple times today and they are saying the same old thing, basically using it as an excuse to refuse to tell me the number plate of the car that hit my bike so I can claim for the damage on his insurance and of course pass it to the police for them to investigate.

I am extremely frustrated and it just seems that these companies deliberately put barriers in my way to make it as difficult as possible to get the info I need to pursue the driver for causing damage to my bike.

My motorcycle is my only means of transport and I now have none because of the idiot that failed to stop.

Someone please say that I have other avenues to pursue the companies for the information I require to get my bike fixed.

What are my options?
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post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 11:24
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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 11:35
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Why was this moved here? I was asking a completely VALID question.
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Fredd
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 11:58
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Nobody's suggesting that you aren't asking a valid question. What you're not doing is asking for help in defending an accusation of a criminal offence - essentially you're asking for advice on obtaining personal data as part of recovering damages from a third party.

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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:02
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This will prevent any advice being given being down here.
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09
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Have you contacted your insurance company?

Under the Data Protection Act ASDA / ParkingEye can disclose the information, but they are not under an obligation to do so. The people who you've spoken to will undoubtedly not have sufficient training / knowledge of the law to understand that they could disclose the information, and they are likely to think (incorrectly) that only the police or some other sufficiently official body can be given the data.

There is a way to force ASDA / ParkingEye to disclose the information you want (i.e. by getting a Norwich pharmacological order in the High Court), but that would involve High Court proceedings and in practice you may be better off letting the police / your insurance company / your insurance company's solicitors deal with it, as ASDA / ParkingEye are more likely to disclose the data voluntarily to the insurance company or the police. In practice the police should investigate a matter such as this within a matter of days, or maybe a couple of weeks, although you may need to case them a bit. The police will give you the number plate once they have it.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:10


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mickR
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09
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QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:02) *
This will prevent any advice being given being down here.


Why?
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Fredd
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:11
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QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:02) *
This will prevent any advice being given being down here.


Have a look at some of the other requests for help in the Flame Pit - they haven't suffered from a lack of attention and advice. What is likely to limit advice is filling the thread with pointless arguments about whether it's in the right place, so that your original question is lost in the noise!


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peterguk
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09) *
Norwich pharmacological order


Norwich Pharmacal order

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich_Pharmacal_order


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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09) *
Have you contacted your insurance company?


Yes.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09) *
Under the Data Protection Act ASDA / ParkingEye can disclose the information, but they are not under an obligation to do so. The people who you've spoken to will undoubtedly not have sufficient training / knowledge of the law to understand that they could disclose the information, and they are likely to think (incorrectly) that only the police or some other sufficiently official body can be given the data.


And it was impossible getting that through to them. They seemed to be making fun of me when I was getting more and more frustrated with them banging on about DPA. Would you be kind enough to specify the section in which that is allowed please cp8759? It could come in handy if I email them.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09) *
There is a way to force ASDA / ParkingEye to disclose the information you want (i.e. by getting a Norwich pharmacological order in the High Court), but that would involve High Court proceedings and in practice you may be better off letting the police / your insurance company / your insurance company's solicitors deal with it, as ASDA / ParkingEye are more likely to disclose the data voluntarily to the insurance company or the police. In practice the police should investigate a matter such as this within a matter of days, or maybe a couple of weeks, although you may need to case them a bit. The police will give you the number plate once they have it.


ParkingEye have the pictures and they said that they will be deleted in 30 days (29 now). What if the police don't get to them before then, I am essentially screwed then. Seems to me that they are deliberately withholding them from me, to prevent me claiming on the policy of the driver.

This post has been edited by «THÖMÅS®©™»: Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:39
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Umtwebby
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:33
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QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:31) *
ParkingEye have the pictures and they said that they will be deleted in 30 days (29 now). What if the police don't get to them before then, I am essentially screwed then. Seems to me that they are deliberately withholding them from me, to prevent me claiming on the policy of the driver.


Write to parking eye and keep a copy. Ask them to retain the specific data or at least the portion of the data which may allow identification. You should let them know that you will either be seeking a court order or the police may request the provision of the data. It should be fairly simple for them to retain the data on your behalf.

Once you have their assurance that they have saved it. Get the police involved or apply for a court order. I think you may be able to get one from a county court rather than the high court.
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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:40
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QUOTE (Umtwebby @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 13:33) *
QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:31) *
ParkingEye have the pictures and they said that they will be deleted in 30 days (29 now). What if the police don't get to them before then, I am essentially screwed then. Seems to me that they are deliberately withholding them from me, to prevent me claiming on the policy of the driver.


Write to parking eye and keep a copy. Ask them to retain the specific data or at least the portion of the data which may allow identification. You should let them know that you will either be seeking a court order or the police may request the provision of the data. It should be fairly simple for them to retain the data on your behalf.

Once you have their assurance that they have saved it. Get the police involved or apply for a court order. I think you may be able to get one from a county court rather than the high court.


Is there someone on here that can suggest or maybe give me some pointers on how to write a letter to them please? I am terrible at writing letters, always have been.
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:31) *
And it was impossible getting that through to them. They seemed to be making fun of me when I was getting more and more frustrated with them banging on about DPA. Would you be kind enough to specify the section in which that is allowed please cp8759? It could come in handy if I email them.

The ICO website says this:

QUOTE
Legal advice and proceedings
Personal data is exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure of the data is necessary:

for or in connection with any legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings);
for obtaining legal advice; or
for establishing, exercising or defending legal rights.
You do not have to disclose personal data in response to a request from a third party simply because this exemption applies. You can choose whether or not to apply the exemption to make a disclosure, and you should do so only if you are satisfied that the disclosure falls within the scope of the exemption. In other words:

it is necessary for one of the above purposes; and
applying the non-disclosure provision would be inconsistent with the disclosure.
When faced with a request for disclosure, it can be difficult to decide whether the necessity test can be satisfied. You may also be reluctant to make a disclosure of personal data because of your relationship with the individual. In such circumstances you may decide not to comply with the request, unless obliged to do so under a court order.

It was derived from Section 35 of the Data Protection Act 1988:

QUOTE
35 Disclosures required by law or made in connection with legal proceedings etc.
(1)Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is required by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court.
(2)Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is necessary—
(a)for the purpose of, or in connection with, any legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings), or
(b)for the purpose of obtaining legal advice,or is otherwise necessary for the purposes of establishing, exercising or defending legal rights.

It is probably self-evident from the CCTV images that legal proceedings may be necessary in order for you to hold the driver responsible for the damage caused to your motorbike. ASDA is therefore legally able to provide the relevant information to you, free of fear of violating the vehicle owner's right to privacy, but they could still refuse your request, and they don't have to give a reason.

--Churchmouse
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samthecat
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:35
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The other point is that if the CCTV is of insufficient quality top identify the car or driver in question is it any use?

There may be some mileage in trying to use the footage to narrow down a possible car from the ANPR database however if you go round most supermarkets how many silver Audi's are there? How will it be proved which one is responsible?


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southpaw82
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 18:30
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 12:09) *
There is a way to force ASDA / ParkingEye to disclose the information you want (i.e. by getting a Norwich pharmacological order in the High Court), but that would involve High Court proceedings

The County Court can make a Norwich Pharmacal order. I’m not convinced it would be of much use or cost effective though.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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nigelbb
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 20:46
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Why are you bothering with this? It's your insurance company who should be chasing the evidence so they can claim from the driver.


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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stamfordman
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 20:53
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Wait and see what the repair cost is. Then you can weigh up involving insurance.
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«THÖMÅS®©™»
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 01:22
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Thanks for all your replies...

What is frustrating for me is that the driver failed to stop and took off knowing he hit my bike, because, the CCTV appears to show the driver stopping for a few moments before doing a runner.

I am trying to resolve this matter reasonably, but like I have said before, it appears that these companies are purposely putting barriers in my way in order to prevent me from getting the information that I require.

As for the damage to my bike, at present and from visible damage as I described in my first post above, I have a quote of £105 for the repairs, but this does not include what could be not visible, if my frame is twisted, then the bike will be a complete write-off. I am trying to get the drivers number plate to pursue him/her via their insurance company to pay for the damage to my bike and the Police will probably pursue them for a fail to stop after a collision offence. The CCTV footage from ASDA is very clear. The vehicle reversed in to my bike knocking it down and then took off without stopping. If I had been there when it happened, I would have been able to get the number plate and called the police. I had been in the store for around 20 minutes when it happened.

I have every right to do this and I am sure anyone else would if they were in the same position.

In the event that this does not go anywhere, because the companies in question are deliberately withholding the information I need to prevent me from pursuing the driver... Is there anything else that can be done in order to do so? I mean, at the end of the day, I am not responsible for the damage to my bike, why should I, or my insurers pay for it...

I did speak to my insurance company at length in relation to this matter, and they are saying that I have to claim on my insurance to get them to start any kind of proceedings to get the driver of the car held responsible.

If only I had his number plate, this would be so much easier and I would not have steam coming out of my ears!

QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 16:21) *
QUOTE
35 Disclosures required by law or made in connection with legal proceedings etc.
(1)Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is required by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court.
(2)Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is necessary—
(a)for the purpose of, or in connection with, any legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings), or
(b)for the purpose of obtaining legal advice,or is otherwise necessary for the purposes of establishing, exercising or defending legal rights.

It is probably self-evident from the CCTV images that legal proceedings may be necessary in order for you to hold the driver responsible for the damage caused to your motorbike. ASDA is therefore legally able to provide the relevant information to you, free of fear of violating the vehicle owner's right to privacy, but they could still refuse your request, and they don't have to give a reason.

--Churchmouse


Thank you Churchmouse for clarifying this, but isn't it the Data Protection Act 1998? I think there is an error in your post there but I have attempted to correct it for you. I did search for a 1988 act on legislation.gov.uk, but did not find anything.

Where do I stand in all of this? Will I have to take ASDA and ParkingEye to court to get an order for them to release the information to me, or can I do it using section 35 of the Data Protection Act 1998 to force them to release it to me, or do I have no alternative but to take both ASDA and ParkingEye to court to make them disclose it to me?

I am not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill here, at least not intentionally anyway, this is why I am here asking for some advice, but here is my points...

The driver of the car is 100% to blame for the damage to my motorcycle, and absolutely should be held responsible both civilly and criminally and will be if I get the car plate, but ParkingEye have the plate and seem to be making it as difficult as possible for me to get it to take out such proceedings against him/her.

Is it possible to do all of this without involving the courts (which could take months, and ParkingEye will undoubtedly stall until they have a chance to perhaps delete the images that I require, this would not surprise me if they did to be honest). I am also possibly facing a PCN for staying way over the time allowed, because of the damage to my bike and I will not be paying it. ASDA did reassure me in that regard saying that if I got one, that they would have it cancelled, yup, I have that recorded.

This post has been edited by «THÖMÅS®©™»: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 01:36
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Broadsman
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 06:37
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QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 01:22) *
the CCTV appears to show the driver stopping for a few moments before doing a runner.
The vehicle reversed in to my bike knocking it down and then took off without stopping.
the CCTV appears to show
The CCTV footage from ASDA is very clear.


Help me out here, did the driver stop or didn't the driver stop? You say both.

CCTV is either very clear or appears to show, it can't be both.

2 choices really, pass it to your insurer or chalk it down to experience. There is probably no damage on the car so if you haven't got the reg no, what ya gonna do?

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Churchmouse
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 09:07
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QUOTE (Broadsman @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 06:37) *
QUOTE («THÖMÅS®©™» @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 01:22) *
the CCTV appears to show the driver stopping for a few moments before doing a runner.
The vehicle reversed in to my bike knocking it down and then took off without stopping.
the CCTV appears to show
The CCTV footage from ASDA is very clear.


Help me out here, did the driver stop or didn't the driver stop? You say both.

CCTV is either very clear or appears to show, it can't be both.

2 choices really, pass it to your insurer or chalk it down to experience. There is probably no damage on the car so if you haven't got the reg no, what ya gonna do?

There is really no need to read the OP literally. What he has written is clear enough to understand that the driver of the car did not leave his/her details as required by law, and that there is a good chance that the CCTV images controlled by ASDA include a readable image of number plate of the offending vehicle. That is enough.

Sorry, OP, I have of course mixed up the year of the DPA (1998) with that of the RTA (1988). Or my vision is going! Anyway, there is only one (current) UK "Data Protection Act" and that is the 1998 version.

So, it seems to me that there is an applicable exception in the DPA 1998 which would permit ASDA to provide the OP with the information he seeks. However, it is clear that ASDA is not required to do so, so it will be down to the OP to persuade ASDA to help out one of its customers with his perfectly reasonable request for information. (There may be a legal option to require ASDA to provide this information, but it would almost certainly cost more to pursue it than the amount of the OP's currently-apparent damages and may not be recoverable, so I would not consider that a realistic option.)

The OP's insurer may or may not assist with this request. However, I don't see why they would not help, because the issue of liability seems quite clear, and the driver probably has third party insurance which they can claim against on the OP's behalf. The only problem is if the ASDA images do not include a readable number plate, in which case the OP will have started a claim that may end up counting against him. On the other paw, his bike will be repaired, and one could argue that this is one reason for purchasing comprehensive insurance. Also, most insurers require that all accidents/incidents be reported to them--regardless of fault and regardless of a claim being made--so there is no legal way to conceal this from them. Unfortunately, insurers also generally think that being involved in any accident (at fault or 100% victim) is a factor that could indicate a higher risk, so they may increase the OP's premium next year regardless of whether he "claims" or not.

I think the claim should be passed to the OP's insurer, but if the OP chooses not to involve his insurer, I would suggest he write to ASDA rather than try to resolve this in person. It is very unlikely that the personnel at the store have any idea what they're doing or even what ASDA's actual policies are in relation to such requests. Keep any correspondence simple, polite and clear. He should feel free to post any drafts here so they can be reviewed before they are sent.

--Churchmouse
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DancingDad
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 10:47
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I'm not clear but if OP has not informed police and got a crime number, do so.
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