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Sad times - assisting emergency service vehicle to pass not possible
Richard11
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:27
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I was already waiting at a red light when the ambulance came around the corner behind me a few moments later. Despite the ambulance honking its horn, I chose not to make room by moving forwards even though it was safe to do so because I would have run a red light by a couple of meters.

I feel a little guilty blocking the ambulance even though it was only for maybe 10 few seconds until the lights changed back to green, but the law is the law ? highway code 219. It feels like a case of complying with the law to avoid potential prosecution, but not doing the right thing. Anyone else had a similar experience ?

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post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:27
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 19:58
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 19:47) *
However, s. 36 does not create an absolute offence. Defences of duress and duress of circumstances can apply (assuming that the facts of the case support them). As might the public interest test. If you plough into other traffic in order to allow an ambulance to pass, or otherwise do something similarly stupid, it would be difficult to defend, but if you reasonably believed that delaying an ambulance (particularly one which is actively indicating it's desire for you to get pout of its way) might create a risk of death or serious injury, and you do no more than is necessary to mitigate that risk, I would say that you have a sound defence.


Buckoke v. Greater London Council [1971] Ch. 655 suggests that it the circumstances you describe would not be a defence in a criminal court. Of course, you could look at challenging the prosecutorial decision, but that's another kettle of fish altogether.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:19
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That appears to predate the courts' acceptance of the defence of duress of circumstances.


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:37
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:19) *
That appears to predate the courts' acceptance of the defence of duress of circumstances.

The problem is it's all down to how reasonable it is to believe, in the circumstances of a particular case, that there is a risk of serious death or injury. The driver hoking his horn and gesticulating might help a defendant, but then you're getting very fact specific. There have been occasions where an ambulance has been on blue lights, but, to be honest, whether we got there 5 minutes earlier or later was never going to make that big a difference.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PECFRO
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57
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One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04
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QUOTE (PECFRO @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57) *
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.


That's interesting.
How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ?
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cp8759
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:21
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (PECFRO @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57) *
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.


That's interesting.
How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ?

Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 20:11
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (PECFRO @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57) *
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.


That's interesting.
How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ?

Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not.


That's fair enough but I was thinking more on requesting the control room to release their tracking data.
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:09
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 20:11) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (PECFRO @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57) *
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.


That's interesting.
How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ?

Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not.


That's fair enough but I was thinking more on requesting the control room to release their tracking data.

If you want aggregated data, make a request under the Freedom of Information Act, they will release it appropriately anonymised and you don't even have to pay a £10 fee.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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MFM
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:34
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There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother.
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big_mac
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:00
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QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:34) *
There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother.

Some people might think it's more socially responsible to get out of the way, if it's possible to do so safely.

(They certainly don't always sit and wait quietly for the lights to change; from my experiences up here, it's more likely that they don't.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifD2H_iLyNI&t=1s
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mickR
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11
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As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?
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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:00) *
QUOTE (MFM @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:34) *
There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother.

Some people might think it's more socially responsible to get out of the way, if it's possible to do so safely. .......


Absolutely.

Though saw a sight today that may have left me in a quandary if it came behind me at the lights....
On motorway, horns and blue lights coming up in outside lane, turned out to be a black Volvo with discrete blues in the grill..... fine, a plain motorway patrol car.
But followed by a old, battered, white over rust Transit, orange light set on top and again, blues in the grill and it turned out, behind.....
Get that behind you at the lights and you would think the local travellers were taking the pee.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 00:57
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Korting
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:20
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11) *
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?


As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely.

A car behind you hinting their horn, doesn't in my opinion satisfy this requirement
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:56
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There is a difference between crossing the junction and continuing on your merry way and crossing the line to pull over enough to let the EV through i would always do the second
but the first only with extreme care
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djtaylor
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:42
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QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:20) *
QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11) *
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?


As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely.

A car behind you hinting their horn, doesn't in my opinion satisfy this requirement

This thread is particularly interesting to me because exactly this scenario happened, except it was a police car and not an ambulance. I was already at the front in the right most or 3 lanes at a roundabout, nowhere to move to and the police car was help up for all of 6 seconds before the lights changed. However, the gestures of the police officers and clear mouthing off from them as they passed, led me to call the police station and make a complaint.

The Sarge who dealt with it was doing his best to encourage me that they wouldn't seek to prosecute anyone that moved out of the way.

I'll treat a case on its merits but in this situation I wasn't crossing the line without proper direction from a police officer and waving his hands wasn't proper direction.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:46
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QUOTE (djtaylor @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:42) *
.......I'll treat a case on its merits but in this situation I wasn't crossing the line without proper direction from a police officer and waving his hands wasn't proper direction.


Personally, I regard blues and twos up my chuff with a cop waving at me and mouthing "get outa the 'effing way you stupid twonker" as proper direction.
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mickR
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:01
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Exactly my earlier point

QUOTE (Korting @ Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:20) *
As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely.


Can you qualify this?
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manuel-fawlty
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:11
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11) *
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?

How do you know that's what he is sounding his horn for?
How do you know he is uniformed?
For that matter, how do you know he is police?
I make it a point nowadays of stopping immediately when I hear/see what appears to be a police car approaching from behind. They are usually driven recklessly, sometimes dangerously, and that is wisest. If this at traffic lights, tough for them. I will not move.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:23
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QUOTE (manuel-fawlty @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:11) *
...How do you know that's what he is sounding his horn for?
How do you know he is uniformed?
For that matter, how do you know he is police?
...


Blues and twos on a battenburg colour scheme are often a good clue.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:53
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QUOTE (manuel-fawlty @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:11) *
tough for them. I will not move.

Tough for anyone they might be trying to help, too. But never mind, eh, at least you can smugly congratulate yourself on sticking it to the man.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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