Sec 172 variable speed limit 40 Options

[bankrupt]

I have received in early April a 172 notice for doing 49mph at M62 westbound J11 - J10 40mph!

- The online evidence only showed 3 photos: two for my car, and the 3rd for the electronic board displaying 40mph.

- I immediately sent them an email [provided with their instruction leaflet], enquiring about the lack of site photos, because I remember well the roadwork 50mph signs were still there on the side of the road, and I was doing 49, till I noticed the electronic board showing 40mph, then I immediately pressed the brakes to slow down to 40!

I asked in my email about site photos as the 50mph signs were still on both sides of the road. They never replied, I doubt they will ever do so!

I sent back the form filled and signed as the driver around mid april [I took a mobile photo, and posted 2nd class, with proof of sending which I have kept] and heard nothing back from them; only to receive a Final Request in mid May asking me to fill the same form yet again!!

- Should I fill in this same form yet again? or write to them I had already done so? by simply emailing the first form photo?

- How can I get the site photos to prove my case, bearing in mind I live 4 hours away from the incident, and it would be impractical to drive to the same site to take photos; presuming the roadwork signs are still there!

- I had a speeding course less than two years ago [after driving for over 20 years without speeding tickets!]

Any advice would highly appreciated.

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[NewJudge]

When you get your response sorted out (you would be wise to simply provide the information again as they request) you should be offered a fixed penalty (£100 and 3 points) for that speed. If you want more evidence you will have to ignore the offer of a fixed penalty and let the matter proceed to court. When you are prosecuted you will be served with the evidence the police will rely on to convict you. If you want anything more than that you will have to plead not guilty and then you will be given the opportunity to ask for it. By then, the FP offer will be off the table.

The idea of fixed penalty is that you accept the allegation as it stands. If you don't want to do that you will have to go through the process I outlined above.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 21 May 2022 - 19:03

[andy_foster]

You can ask for evidence. They don't have to provide it at this stage. It is unlikely that they will, but they might.

As regards the s. 172 reminder - most likely they are just inefficient/incompetent. However, unless you can prove that the response was served (delivered), it would be prudent to send it again. Going the other way, proof of posting creates a rebuttable presumption of service, which courts tend to require some convincing in order to rebut (even if the police witness only says that the system says it was posted). The courts are generally far quicker to rebut the presumption of service when the police witness says that they have no record of having received it).

[bankrupt]

Thanks every one for the advice; much appreciated indeed!

I suppose it would be pointless then to challenge the penalty notice, spite the fact I can recall very well the roadwork 50mph signs were left on both sides of the motorway; which in turn must have led me to subconsciously reverting to 49mph before seeing the next electronic board clearly showing 40mph limit!! I don't think I will be able to prove my point in court irrespective of how genuinely I was keen NOT to violate the speed limit

I am going to fill in the form, yet again, and send it off.

Just one more dilemma for me, that I need to renew my car insurance by tomorrow morning, and the online questionnaire has a question if I have any points on my license, and what offence (SP30 or SP 50 etc...); but I am not sure if I should disclose it now, and if it is sp30 or sp50? It is also asking me for the date of the points/fixed penalty, which has not been issued yet! Not sure how to answer these questions!

Should I not disclose it now, and wait till the penalty and endorsement is amended? And would that increase my insurance premium greatly? these would be my first points in 22 years of driving what a disgrace!

[The Rookie]

Well it matters not if you had passed 50 signs at some point previously, if you had passed 40 signs that was the limit in force. The photo of the board as evidence would suggest you had.

[andy_foster]

Technically it would be pointless to challenge the penalty notice, as there is no penalty notice and will never be a penalty notice.

For 49 in a 40 limit (or any other speed up to 10% +9mph over the limit) you would usually be offered a Speed Awareness Course unless you have done one for an offence committed in the 3 years prior to the current allegation. This has no basis in law, and the police get a £35 cut from the course fee, which would be slightly less than the £100 fixed penalty, but would avoid getting points or having to declare anything to your insurers (assuming that they don't ask about courses - used to be that the Admiral group did, but not any more, and as far as we are aware, nobody else asks either).

If you are not offered (or do not accept) a course, you would expect a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty - £100 and 3 points (SP50 for a motorway speeding offence). You would be free to accept, decline or ignore such an offer.

If the allegation is not disposed of by way of a bribe SAC or a COFP, you should expect to be summoned to court (SJPN) for the alleged speeding offence. If convicted at trial you would be sentenced in line with the sentencing guidelines, and expect to pay £620 towards the prosecution's "costs".

If the signage was defective, that would potentially be a strong defence. However, "I'm fairly sure that there were still 50mph signs there, your worships" isn't a defence that I would be confident in relying on.

Going forwards, viz top tip - invest in a dash cam.

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Fri, 27 May 2022 - 20:38

[The Rookie]

- I had a speeding course less than two years ago [after driving for over 20 years without speeding tickets!]

I doubt a course will be offered.

[bankrupt]

I have found online some solicitor websites giving some advice on the time limit for serving the NIP, such as:

https://frankrogerslaw.co.uk/notice-of-inte...nvalidate-a-nip

Quoting the following:

["The law states that the police must send the NIP within 14 days of the offence, not including the day it happened. So, the NIP you receive must be dated within 14 days of the offence. If it is dated outside of this time, the notice is invalid."]

["What could invalidate a NIP?
If the registered keeper for a vehicle received a NIP more than 14 days after the offence was committed, then it should be invalid & any subsequent prosecution will have to be abandoned.


You must still comply with a NIP received late & then argue the point when the case comes to Court.

["What could invalidate a NIP? If the registered keeper for a vehicle received a NIP more than 14 days after the offence was committed, then it should be invalid & any subsequent prosecution will have to be abandoned."]


Can I argue that the police letter I received mid May, while the incident was in March, is outside the 14 day limit? bearing in mind that the letter of May was titled 'final reminder'!

[andy_foster]

No.

[The Rookie]

Well you can argue that, but then the prosecution will present the evidence of the NIP you got in April and the bench will retire for a good laugh at the ridiculousness of your case before sentencing you to a harsher punishment than you would have received otherwise. But it is of course your choice.

[Logician]

!
I suppose it would be pointless then to challenge the penalty notice, spite the fact I can recall very well the roadwork 50mph signs were left on both sides of the motorway; which in turn must have led me to subconsciously reverting to 49mph before seeing the next electronic board clearly showing 40mph limit!! I don't think I will be able to prove my point in court irrespective of how genuinely I was keen NOT to violate the speed limit

As has been pointed out, provided that speed limits have been lawfully imposed, the limit that applies to you at any one time is the last limit sign that you passed. Accepting that you passed 50 limit signs left in place, then the limit was 50, when you then came to an electronic board showing 40, then the limit applying to you became 40, and you were photographed breaking that limit and the limit sign was also photographed. Even if you could prove to the satisfaction of the court that you had passed 50 limit signs by the road side, that would not help you, that limit was superseded by the electronic sign showing 40, that is the way speed limit signage works.

As for most road traffic offnces, speeding is an offence of strict liability, it does not matter that that you were keen not to break the limit, if you did break it then you are guilty. This is different to, say, theft where your state of mind is an element of the offence.

Just one more dilemma for me, that I need to renew my car insurance by tomorrow morning, and the online questionnaire has a question if I have any points on my license, and what offence (SP30 or SP 50 etc...); but I am not sure if I should disclose it now, and if it is sp30 or sp50? It is also asking me for the date of the points/fixed penalty, which has not been issued yet! Not sure how to answer these questions!

The question usually asked is "Is any prosecution pending?" and your answer to that question is "Yes, I expect to be prosecuted for speeding at 49mph in a 40mph limit"