German speeding fine via DVLA address |
German speeding fine via DVLA address |
Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 10:06
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
Just received a speeding offense in Germany for 6 Dec 2019.where ( I page ) is entirely written in German and in the reply section 4 states it must be written in German.
As the registered keeper I have never driven in Germany and last visited in 2011 and therefore did not commit the offense What obligation if any do I have to fill out this form in its entirety as it states You are " REQUESTED" as a witness to provide us with the name of the driver. The vehicle is owned by a family member who resides in the UAE who fitted it out as a camper van for his limited time with friends in the UK. The person in the picture ( Assumed passenger as its RH drive) is unknown to me and was thinking of e mailing them instead to that effect rather than completing this form. And also request a word document of the entire German Page so can copy paste in goggle translate Accept the offence took place in Germany and subject to German Law but feel if they are going to pursue overseas offenders they should respect their native language and not ask for a written German response. Any ideas how to best proceed |
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 10:06
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 11:40
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
Hi tried adding the 3 German attachments in case someone asks
Will ask administrator as messaged "Welcome" as below but got message box full response. Hi New to this site and struggling I just added my first post today "German speeding fine via DVLA address " and tried adding the 3 German PCN attachments but cant use the http// option so used the more option button and used the Browse option and inserted 3 but when I pressed up load nothing happened but noted they are in the system as it states "Attachment space used 1.73MB of 1.95MB" where one is a duplicate as tried uploading again. I have gone to "my controls" and the 3 +1 duplicate are there but cant delete them or attach them as a additional post . Can you please help me either move them to an additional support to my post or delete the 4 attachments and tell me how to redo it Thanks |
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 13:30
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
I presume you haven’t read the FAQ on posting images?
You use an external host, not the site as it’s very restrictive. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 15:35
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The European Court of Human rights has repeatedly ruled that any such notice must be sent to you in a language you can understand, as required by article 6 of the convention (my emphasis):
Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights: (a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him; ... f. “Language” 373. If it is shown or there are reasons to believe that the accused has insufficient knowledge of the language in which the information is given, the authorities must provide him with a translation (Brozicek v. Italy, § 41; Tabaï v. France (dec.)). See https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Guide_Ar...riminal_ENG.pdf -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 16:05
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#5
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
The European Court of Human rights has repeatedly ruled that any such notice must be sent to you in a language you can understand, as required by article 6 of the convention (my emphasis): [i]Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights: (a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him; AIUI in Germany they rely on identifying the driver (without the benefit of a s172 equivalent), so the OP is being treated as a witness, not the accused. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 16:41
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
AIUI in Germany they rely on identifying the driver (without the benefit of a s172 equivalent), so the OP is being treated as a witness, not the accused. In that case the letter can be ignored, surely? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 17:28
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#7
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
AIUI in Germany they rely on identifying the driver (without the benefit of a s172 equivalent), so the OP is being treated as a witness, not the accused. In that case the letter can be ignored, surely? I don't see why not. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 21:51
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
Ok I will ignore it as the timing over the festive season assumes I received it and makes no allowance for maybe escaping to visit overseas relatives. OI note from their website they are closed from 24 Dec to 2nd January 2020
As I cant post the attachments I will type the full content of the Form to complete 1). Were you the driver /rider responsible for the traffic offence? Yes 0 No 0 2). If you were not the driver /rider responsible who committed the offence? Mr 0 Ms 0 Surname ______________________________ Address ______________________________ DOB ______________________________ Place of Birth ______________________________ Nationality ______________________________ 3). Do you acknowledge that you committed the offence? Yes 0 No 0 4). If you do not acknowledge that you committed the offense , please explain why. ( Please write your statement in German) __________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________________ Place. date _____________________________ Signature____________________________ Please return this reply form by 03.01.2020 to Polizeiprasidium Rheinpfalz Maximilianstrasse 6 67346 Speyer Germany/Allemagne PAGE 2 all in German full page and been on the www. polizei.rip.de/ZBS given with English translate for the form " Allgermeine information zum Ordnungswidrigkeitsverfahren" to copy paste but no Joy Page 3 On the mug shot and vehicle registration all in English where key content states As Holder of the registration certificate of the aforementioned vehicle, you are requested as a witness, to provide us with the name of the driver/rider who committed the offence to enable us to settle this case. under section 46(1) of the administrative Offences Act, in conjunction with the first sentence of section 161a(1) of the code of Criminal Procedure, you are obliged to provide this information. As a witness, you may only refuse to provide information in respect of questions which. if you were to answer them, would entail the risk of you yourself-or one of your relatives.as referred to in section 52(1) - of the code of Criminal Procedure -being prosecuted for a criminal offence or an administrative offence. If you yourself were the Driver/Rider , or if the questionnaire has been passed on to the driver/rider responsible ,the following instruction applies. Under section 55 of the Administrative Offences Act ,you have the opportunity to comment on the allegation. It is for you to decide whether you wish to comment on the charge or refrain from making a statement. Please complete the attached form by 03.01.2020 to Polizeiprasidium Rheinpfalz Maximilianstrasse 6 67346 Speyer Germany/Allemagne Once our investigations have been concluded, the driver/rider who committed the offence will receive a notice of fine specifying the fine to be paid and, if appropriate, a suspension of the driving license. including fees and expenses. I am unclear what jurisdiction the German Police have over the Registered Keeper here in the UK if they were not the driver Rider and how they enforce it if its ignored. Maybe they rely on people just caving in. providing the info and follow there process |
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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 - 22:21
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I am unclear what jurisdiction the German Police have over the Registered Keeper here in the UK if they were not the driver Rider and how they enforce it if its ignored. Maybe they rely on people just caving in. providing the info and follow there process Based on what we've been told, in Germany if there is no reply the police just turn up and see if the person who answers the door matches the photo (presumably all German speed cameras are front facing for this reason), if the registered keeper is abroad I don't imagine they bother. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 10:03
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,209 Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Member No.: 6,356 |
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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 12:15
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
I am unclear what jurisdiction the German Police have over the Registered Keeper here in the UK if they were not the driver Rider and how they enforce it if its ignored. Maybe they rely on people just caving in. providing the info and follow there process Based on what we've been told, in Germany if there is no reply the police just turn up and see if the person who answers the door matches the photo (presumably all German speed cameras are front facing for this reason), if the registered keeper is abroad I don't imagine they bother. So assume Police wont be coming to UK to door knock and carry out a photographic match so begs the Q why waste Police time issuing it. The photograph was not from the front but taken from the passenger side as its a RHS drive and its quite fuzzy and not clear if its a passenger or driver. If its a passenger or Hitchhiker makes a bit of a nonsense not taking it from the front. There is a e mail on their website so to diffuse this and close it out is it worth just sending a quick e mail with a google translate version quoting the ref Number and simply state I have never driven in Germany and last visited your Country in 2011. The picture you sent is not clear to identify and as its taken from the LHS it would appear to be a passenger not the driver as it is a RHS drive UK vehicle |
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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 12:50
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
So assume Police wont be coming to UK to door knock and carry out a photographic match so begs the Q why waste Police time issuing it. If they send out 100,000 of these and say 50,000 people reply in some form or another, and maybe 20,000 end up paying some sort of fine, then it's well worth the stamps. The difference between the cost of sending them out vs the value of the fine is such that even if the collection rate were just 1 or 2%, it would still be worth doing. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 13:27
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
Thanks for that
Just looked at the AA and the tail end below is a bit on them using agencies collecting fines but in my case I don't have a fine so not sure what if any mechanism the German Police have to pursue the driver details here if the registered keeper cannot assist. I note the French issue the fine to the UK registered keeper as the responsible person where surely an appeal could be lodged that you were not in France before it escalates to the recovery agents (EPC)/(EMO) So the French apply Guilty until you prove Innocence . I still think it would be worthwhile e mailing them and ask them to acknowledge receipt and if there is any further input required from me as cant identify the person pictured and have no info on the vehicles movements to assist further Civil offences For things like parking fines or driving in restricted traffic zones (If our mail is anything to go by these are the most common offence committed abroad by AA members) the authorities can use debt collection agencies to recover fines. Operating across Europe, agencies are appointed by the authorities in one country to act on their behalf to recover fines in another country. If you find yourself in this situation you can expect to hear either from European Municipality Outsourcing (EMO), or from Euro Parking Collection (EPC). We’ve heard of drivers ignoring fines when contacted directly by the enforcing authority, only to be contacted later by one of these agencies with a much-increased penalty charge. If you believe you could have committed the offence you should pay the fine. If you ignore it, not only will the fine increase, but you can expect travel difficulties if you try to return to the same country. You can appeal but this usually has to be done in the [u][i]local language. https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-co...-offence-abroad This post has been edited by Laham: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 14:06 |
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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 - 16:36
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Speeding is not a civil matter, it's a criminal matter and debt collection agencies have zero powers, all they can do is send scary letters that can be filed in the bin.
The proper enforcement mechanism is for the German authorities to write to the Lord Chancellor and ask him to collect any fine, see rule 30.10 here: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...015-part-30.pdf However you have not been fined, and in the absence of a s172 equivalent I don't see what the German authorities could fine you for. But even ignoring this, it is rare for foreign authorities to use the official mechanism to collect the money from a minor speeding penalty. You'll have to make you own mind up about whether this is in any way connected with the fact that the money would be paid to the local court and would not be remitted back to the country in question. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 12:56
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
I just read this on the RAC regarding France who Fine the Registered Keeper for speeding unlike Germany
This means a French person caught speeding in the UK could get away with the offence if they were not the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned, as the French equivalent of the DVLA can only pass details of the offence to the keeper. This may make prosecution extremely hard for UK authorities. “And if a UK driver is caught speeding in France in a vehicle they are not the owner of, they too might get away with the fine as the registered keeper in the UK would be pursued by the French authorities to pay. "While the keeper can state in response they were not the driver, the big question is: will French authorities pursue and fine keepers who claim they weren’t driving at the time? “The RAC has, however, been advised by the Department for Transport that there is no transfer of penalty points to UK drivers’ licences for speeding offences committed abroad. Not in the French Situation of a fine being issued which starts the ball rolling to respond to avoid Euro bailiffs knocking on my door where the fine letter I assume like the UK has a reply form to state who was driving. (In the UK failing to name the driver is a far more serious offence than the speeding) As the RAC does not state the next BIG Q scenario of what powers the French have in the UK if you state "a passport check will verify I was not in France so I am innocent until proven guilty and I genuinely do not know the driver from the photo you have submitted." If the French are not satisfied with that response do they have powers in the UK to pursue the more serious offence of not naming the driver or just pursue the fine via Bailiffs. If the French have additional powers so might the Germans so have decided not to E mail the German Police and see what develops This post has been edited by Laham: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 12:58 |
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 13:14
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#16
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
If the French are not satisfied with that response do they have powers in the UK to pursue the more serious offence of not naming the driver or just pursue the fine via Bailiffs. If the French have additional powers so might the Germans so have decided not to E mail the German Police and see what develops It doesn't matter whether the French (or Germans are satisfied or not. Any offence of failing to name the driver (if there even is such a provision in French or German law) would only apply if the offence was committed in their own jurisdiction - which it wouldn't be if they asked you while you're in the UK. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 13:43
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
It doesn't matter whether the French (or Germans are satisfied or not. Any offence of failing to name the driver (if there even is such a provision in French or German law) would only apply if the offence was committed in their own jurisdiction - which it wouldn't be if they asked you while you're in the UK. That depends, many countries claim extra-territorial jurisdiction. For example many French criminal laws apply worldwide for crimes committed against French citizens so if you were to beat up a French national in London, you'd be guilty of a crime under French law, regardless of the legal position that might exist under English law. For obvious practical reasons this is virtually never enforced, but in principle France could pass a s172 like law that applies worldwide, with a view to collecting any fine if you're ever stopped in any part of (Metropolitan or overseas) France. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 14:34
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 27 Dec 2019 Member No.: 107,185 |
Thanks guys and HNY ill post any developments
International Law has no Boundaries depending on Muscle Size and Political clout and no need to reply to this one A Uk citizen killed on our Roads by a USA Diplomats wife is hitting a USA extradition brick wall to bring her back for UK Justice. By contrast an Australian Citizen arrested in the Uk for a minor offence of jumping Bail is sentenced for 1 year in max security prison by UK courts with USA influence with the prime objective of extraditing him to USA. An unwritten special mates International law breaking all "SPEED" records must have been drawn up well in advance of this one. |
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 14:42
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I don't think skipping bail is a minor offence. In my book a minor offence is stuff like littering, parking on a pedestrian crossing, that kind of thing. Skipping bail after giving an undertaking to a court not to do so is pretty serious because it shows wilful and deliberate contempt for the law, thus a stiff sentence might be needed pour encourager les autres.
This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 14:42 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 - 15:01
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
It doesn't matter whether the French (or Germans are satisfied or not. Any offence of failing to name the driver (if there even is such a provision in French or German law) would only apply if the offence was committed in their own jurisdiction - which it wouldn't be if they asked you while you're in the UK. That depends, many countries claim extra-territorial jurisdiction. For example many French criminal laws apply worldwide for crimes committed against French citizens so if you were to beat up a French national in London, you'd be guilty of a crime under French law, regardless of the legal position that might exist under English law. For obvious practical reasons this is virtually never enforced, but in principle France could pass a s172 like law that applies worldwide, with a view to collecting any fine if you're ever stopped in any part of (Metropolitan or overseas) France. Those are generally narrow exceptions to the general “rule” against infringing on another nation’s sovereignty. I’ve held the view for a while that there’sa good argument against a s 172 notice that is served on a person outside of the UK being of no effect, as it infringes on the sovereignty of the nation they are in. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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