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UKPC Aylesbury Shopping Park
shadesbass
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 20:40
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Hi, the driver visited the Aylesbury Shopping Park (Cambridge Close) and received a parking charge from UKPC on the windscreen. The driver didn't spot the signs stating that the first 2 hours are free but only with a ticket. The driver was only there about half an hour to visit a couple of shops. The 'time first seen' and 'issue time' are 16 minutes apart.

My initial thought was that the driver should just pay up, but a bit of research led me here. Should they sit tight and wait for a letter?
Slight complication that the driver and registered keeper are different.

Photos attached of the parking charge and a couple from UKPC of the signs.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 17:26
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post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 20:40
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Dave65
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 21:51
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Best to edit your post and remove anything that may identify who drove the vehicle.

Refer only to " the driver" did this or that.
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shadesbass
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 22:01
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Thanks for the advice, hopefully now suitably amended.
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ostell
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 08:08
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As with all windscreen tickets an appeal is sent from the keeper so that it arrive on day 26 after the event. Hopefully they will write to you to reject your appeal but fail to send a Notice to Keeper or contact the DVLA and so fail to comply with POFA and not be able to hold the keeper liable. Just continue the mail ping pong till day 56 and the keeper is in the clear.

Appeal about the unclear signage and anything else.
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shadesbass
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 13:00
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 09:08) *
As with all windscreen tickets an appeal is sent from the keeper so that it arrive on day 26 after the event. Hopefully they will write to you to reject your appeal but fail to send a Notice to Keeper or contact the DVLA and so fail to comply with POFA and not be able to hold the keeper liable. Just continue the mail ping pong till day 56 and the keeper is in the clear.

Appeal about the unclear signage and anything else.


Thank you very much ostell. So sit tight until shortly before day 26 then? I assume that's 26 calendar days rather than business days? Is it better to appeal by post or use their online system?
Apologies if this is posted somewhere, but is there a template to follow or at this stage is it just a case of stating that the RK and driver are not the same (and not revealing the driver's details), that the signs were not clear and that the stay was less than the free 2 hour limit anyway (I could pull dash cam footage to prove entry and exit times).
Thanks again for all the help.

EDIT: Is this a suitable template to use?

This post has been edited by shadesbass: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 14:59
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shadesbass
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 22:15
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One other question - is it worth contacting the shops that were visited to see if they will get the ticket cancelled? Or could their involvement jeopardise the process somehow?
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ostell
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 08:16
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Yes contact the shops. Try and talk to a manager and take in proof of spend

The appeal you found is out of date

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 08:17
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shadesbass
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 22:12
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 09:16) *
Yes contact the shops. Try and talk to a manager and take in proof of spend

The appeal you found is out of date

I phoned one shop today and spoke to the manager. They said they've tried appealing for other customers in the past but it's always been rejected. Roll on day 26 then...

This post has been edited by shadesbass: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 22:12
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shadesbass
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 13:20
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Next week will be day 26, so the first letter will need to be sent soon.
The draft letter from the RK states that the RK was not the driver and that no admission as to the identity of the driver is made. Also that the signage was not seen by the driver and that the stay was significantly less than the 2 free hours, therefore no loss of earnings or costs were incurred by UKPC by the driver failing to display a ticket. The charge should be cancelled and the RK should not be contacted again.
Is this the right level of detail for the initial response?
Is it better to use the online system or send them a letter by post?
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shadesbass
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 09:24
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Could someone please let me know if this is OK to send as the initial appeal (to arrive on day 26, prior to receiving any correspondence other than the ticket on windscreen)?

RE: Appeal Against Parking Charge Number xxxxxxxx

I am the registered keeper for the vehicle listed on this notice but I was not the driver at the material time, nor do I make any admission as to the identity of the driver.

Upon parking at the site the driver was genuinely not aware that a ticket was needed for free stays under 2 hours as the signage was not seen on entry or between the parking space and retailer visited. Since the stay was for significantly less than the 2 free hours offered (stated on the parking charge as 16 minutes between XXX and YYY on ZZZ date) there was no reason to deliberately ignore signage. Since no loss of earnings or costs were incurred by either UKPC or the landowner by the driver failing to display a ticket, I therefore kindly ask that you cancel the parking charge and do not contact me again, except to confirm that no further action will be taken and that my personal details have been removed from your records.

Regards,
RK
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 12:20
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No, tats far too soft

Costs is irrelevant. BEAVIS put paid to that *in a free 2 hour car park*
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shadesbass
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:23
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 13:20) *
No, tats far too soft

Costs is irrelevant. BEAVIS put paid to that *in a free 2 hour car park*


Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.
There's not much detail as I thought the tactic was to give as little as possible to drag this out until day 56, when the keeper would no longer be liable?
The signage into the car park was placed after the turning taken to the parking space (i.e. it is inside the car park, not at the entrance) and the visibility of the nearest signage once parked was obscured by parked vans and a covered shopping trolley park, nor were there signs directly outside the retailer visited. Should I mention all this now? I'm not sure what else to add given it was a simple case of not knowing a ticket was required and that the stay was only 16 minutes according to the parking ticket.
Should I ask for a POPLA code now or wait?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 14:34
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Im not saying it has too much deial. Im saying it is too soft in tone and in what grounds are appealed on.

They have to give youa POPLA code IF (when) they reject your appeal.
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shadesbass
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:21
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OK understood, thanks.
I can see no mention of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 on the ticket. Is that something I can/should add to the appeal now?
I've read in other threads that UKPC have failed to provide evidence of a contract with the landowner at this site. Should I challenge them on that now as well?
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Jlc
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 15:29
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The NtD won't say anything about PoFA - after all it is a notice to the driver...

(Only the NtK needs to, to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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shadesbass
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:11
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 16:29) *
The NtD won't say anything about PoFA - after all it is a notice to the driver...

(Only the NtK needs to, to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge)

OK many thanks for the clarification, this is all new to me (in case you hadn't guessed) and still learning!
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shadesbass
post Mon, 12 Aug 2019 - 19:34
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Is this sufficient?

I am the registered keeper for the vehicle listed on this notice but I was not the driver at the material time, nor do I make any admission as to the identity of the driver.

Signage pertaining to the conditions of parking were not displayed sufficiently prominently at the entry to the car park or between the parking space and retailer visited. The driver was therefore unaware of the requirement to display a ticket during the free 2 hour period.

I therefore request that you cancel the parking charge and do not contact me again, except to confirm that no further action will be taken and that my personal details have been removed from your records.


Out of interest why aim for day 26 and not day 24 or 25?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 07:23
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They have 29 to 56 days to get the NtK to you following a NtD

26 days is 2 days closer to 56 days and a timeout than 24 wink.gif
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ostell
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 08:27
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And if certificate of posting on day 26 it is assumed to have been delivered two working days later.

nor do I make any admission as to the identity of the driver. Change to: Nor do I have any legal obligation to identify......
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shadesbass
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 09:30
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Thanks all for your invaluable help with this.
I was intending to send 1st class on day 25, to arrive on day 26 (assumed to have been delivered on day 27 based on certificate of posting).

Is there a difference in definition between the "registered keeper" and "keeper" in this instance? Is there any value in admitting to being the registered keeper but denying the identity of the keeper (as well as the driver) at the time? The driver uses the car most days, maintains and taxes it etc. so could be argued to be the keeper of the car even if not the registered keeper with the DVLA?
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