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Stoke-on-Trent PCN contavention code 02
admam
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 01:49
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Hi folks,

Driver parked up in front of another car, completely unaware of the sign that is quite easy to miss if your not looking, no DYL either so was just not looking for any signage really. There were at least another 3 cars, possibly 4 that were also parked and they all got PCN's too. Observation period was less than 1 minute.

Is the signage adequate or should there be any road markings to signify parking restirctions?

Thanks in advance.









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post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 01:49
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 00:38
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 00:11) *
I have to ask how one gets to access those signed bays to park, as the top sign bars your access !

Not a scoobie but ATM OP is lucky not to have a double whammy, parking PCN and a Bus Lanes one by post.

That signage is enough for me to say don't fight on signage or lack of lines, you will lose.
Whether you want to risk discount going down the technical route as per CP's comment earlier is up to you.
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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 00:56
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I agree the signage is perfectly adequate, so if you want to fight this you'll have to pursue the technical route. IMO there are strong ground but we can't give you a cast iron guarantee, so as DancindDad says you'll have to decide whether to risk the discount.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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admam
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 08:22
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Discount has already expired so I'm happy to pursue a technical route.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 08:35
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Discount has already expired so I'm happy to pursue a technical route.

Too right it's expired, and so has the 28-day period.

This might actually be to your advantage.

Firstly, were you the driver? This is not a private ticket, so declaring who is the driver should be done because this adds weight i.e. I could not A, B, C etc, not someone told me that A, B, C.

If you were, then start the representations with I did not see...and even now that I've seen the council's pictures, I'm still confused because it appears that because I was not driving a taxi or bus I should not even have passed this sign, which rather makes parking restrictions beyond redundant.
And then add that you know that these reps are after the 28 day period but that you still hope the council will respond by post within 7 working days.

Don't describe the regulation issue, become a living part of it!

Wait for others' views, but do not delay too long, this is day 29.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:05
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+1
The sign is confusing, implying you can park in a marked bay.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:32
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Let's not get bogged down on the apparent conflict between Bus Gate and Restricted Parking Zone.
Certain vehicles can go past the bus gate, buses, taxis.
The restricted parking zone applies to them as well.

OP should not have driven past the Bus Gate on that road.
But what other entry points are there that may lead to parking places?
And it is still an entry point to the restricted zone and thus needs an entry point sign.
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admam
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 10:58
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Council mentioned NtO will be sent on 27th.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 12:11
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Council mentioned NtO will be sent on 27th.

Where and when?

And who is the registered keeper and who was driving i.e. you or not you?


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admam
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 14:35
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When I rang to request photos and told them it was urgent as it was day 28, the chap said NtO was scheduled to be sent on 27th.

I was driving, it's my wife's car (was passenger at the time) but it is a lease car.

This post has been edited by admam: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 14:37
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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 16:39
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So you need to get onto the lease company and get them to challenge the NtO on the basis that the car is leased to you. If the lease company just pays the penalty, all rights of appeal are lost, so this must not be allowed to happen. Stickily speaking the relevant ground is that the lease company is not the owner, because where you lease a vehicle for more than six months you are considered to be discharging the responsibilities that come with ownership.

Unfortunately some of the more inept leave companies will just pay the penalty and invoice you for the cost.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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admam
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 19:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 16:39) *
So you need to get onto the lease company and get them to challenge the NtO on the basis that the car is leased to you. If the lease company just pays the penalty, all rights of appeal are lost, so this must not be allowed to happen. Stickily speaking the relevant ground is that the lease company is not the owner, because where you lease a vehicle for more than six months you are considered to be discharging the responsibilities that come with ownership.

Unfortunately some of the more inept leave companies will just pay the penalty and invoice you for the cost.


I will ask my wife to, she is not going to be happy about this!

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 13:34) *
I'd like to see the council photos, however I'd never pay a Stoke PCN in any event.

1) The regulation 9A PCN has a reg 3(2)(b)(ii) flaw, nothing tells you that if you make an informal rep and receive an NtO, the outstanding informal rep will be disregarded
2) If you make a 2nd informal representation after the first has been rejected, the template response you get back says the council is "unable" to consider further informal reps, hence fettered discretion, see http://bit.ly/2HOCTqJ
2) There's a very clear-cut will / may flaw on the Notice to Owner template, this can win on its own, see the example posted in this thread http://bit.ly/2APlIQy
3) The Notice of Rejection template has a "within" flaw as per Al Bar, see http://bit.ly/2TJViX6


Should I await the NtO before making representations as suggested above?

This post has been edited by admam: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 19:54
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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 22:12
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IMO, no,

Don't make those reps now, I refer you to my earlier post.

Submit reps;
Contact the lease company;
If your wife receives an NTO, come back here.
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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 22:41
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The priority must be to get an NtO in your wife's name so you can be in control of the process. Contact the lease company asap. You won't be able to make technical reps on your own, we'll help you draft them, but until you have an NtO you can challenge frankly there's no point.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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admam
post Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 23:19
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 08:35) *
Discount has already expired so I'm happy to pursue a technical route.

Too right it's expired, and so has the 28-day period.

This might actually be to your advantage.

Firstly, were you the driver? This is not a private ticket, so declaring who is the driver should be done because this adds weight i.e. I could not A, B, C etc, not someone told me that A, B, C.

If you were, then start the representations with I did not see...and even now that I've seen the council's pictures, I'm still confused because it appears that because I was not driving a taxi or bus I should not even have passed this sign, which rather makes parking restrictions beyond redundant.
And then add that you know that these reps are after the 28 day period but that you still hope the council will respond by post within 7 working days.

Don't describe the regulation issue, become a living part of it!

Wait for others' views, but do not delay too long, this is day 29.


Which sign are you referring to?
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