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PCN Denmark Street, Camden - What does loading mean?
Stu131324
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 19:54
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Hi

I parked in a bay which allowed loading for up to 40 minutes at around 00:10 this morning. I left the vehicle in order to 'load' my wife out of a nearby pub and into the car. I received a ticket stating that the contravention of "Parking in a loading place or bay during restricted hours without loading" had occurred. It was stated that the vehicle was observed from 00:11:04 until 00:16:28 during which time I was in the pub collecting my load/wife in order to take her to my vehicle.

This is the sign I parked in front of: https://goo.gl/maps/X72fgsAJtjnqoMPq5

Is there an official definition of 'Loading' which I was failing to adhere to?

As a side note, the PCN pouch was tucked under my wiper blade by the smallest part of it's corner and none of the adhesive backing had been removed leading me to think that this may be a deliberate tactic to increase the chance that the ticket would have blown away and I would have found myself with reduced options for appealing or paying a reduced fine when they wrote to me with their 'Notice to Owner'

Thank you in advance

Stu
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post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 19:54
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:15
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QUOTE (Stu131324 @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:54) *
I left the vehicle in order to 'load' my wife out of a nearby pub and into the car.

Is there an official definition of 'Loading' which I was failing to adhere to?



Are you being funny?
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Incandescent
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:32
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Depends on whether she was legless or not !

Seriously, if you are boarding a passenger, that is an exemption to yellow lines, but I'm not sure about loading bays. Everything else you have said is of no relevance.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:41
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Boarding is an exemption to loading bay, which is dual purpose bay at that time with disabled but you've been given a loading code.

Camden says of exemption:

Setting down and/ or picking up of passengers, or to load or unload any personal luggage. This should not take longer than 2 minutes unless the person suffers from a disability.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:42
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Neil B
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:50
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:15) *
QUOTE (Stu131324 @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:54) *
I left the vehicle in order to 'load' my wife out of a nearby pub and into the car.

Is there an official definition of 'Loading' which I was failing to adhere to?



Are you being funny?

It made me laugh.

But I wonder how many times she's had to 'load' him?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Stu131324
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 20:57
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:41) *
Boarding is an exemption to loading bay, which is dual purpose bay at that time with disabled but you've been given a loading code.

Camden says of exemption:

Setting down and/ or picking up of passengers, or to load or unload any personal luggage. This should not take longer than 2 minutes unless the person suffers from a disability.


Thank you, I believe this is the explanation I was looking for. I had taken the 40 minute limit to be on the amount of time a vehicle could remain in that bay while the loading occurred. Does this definition from Camden mean that there is a different amount of time allowed when the loading is not of commercial goods? Can I take it from the other responses that 'Loading' should usually be taken to mean 'of commercial goods'?

To provide further clarification, my wife did require assistance to get from the pub, and the loading bay was the closest I could find to the pub which was more than a 2 minute walk away. As I took the 40 minute limit to mean loading of 'anything' I did not think this would present a problem.

Many thanks

Stu
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:28
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Look, loading is not people but goods. Unless you classify your wife as baggage and she travels in aircraft holds forget that.

But an exemption is boarding people - what assistance do you mean?
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Stu131324
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:36
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:28) *
Look, loading is not people but goods. Unless you classify your wife as baggage and she travels in aircraft holds forget that.

But an exemption is boarding people - what assistance do you mean?


By assistance I was referring to the reply that said 'it depends if she was legless or not' - she was, though not anatomically, just through intoxication.

For my own education, as I drive a car for work and will occasionally find myself with a need to park in a loading bay and load or unload goods. How would this situation have played out if I had parked in the bay, walked to a nearby building, collected some goods and returned to the vehicle 10 minutes later after having received the ticket? I have no intention to appeal this ticket using false information, I am just looking to be educated as to what you need to do to comply with a bay that says you can park there for 40 minutes for the purpose of loading?

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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:43
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Loading needs to be continuous or at least with minor breaks as goods are transferred. It does not mean you can park for 39 mins and load on the 40th min. Those bays are also most often used by commercial vehicles and CEOs are likely to be strict when they see no loading with private cars.

You can stop on yellow lines to board someone but they need to be ready, or nearby if assistance needed (eg disabled, a child). Intoxicated is not likely to go down well.
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Stu131324
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 21:56
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:43) *
Loading needs to be continuous or at least with minor breaks as goods are transferred. It does not mean you can park for 39 mins and load on the 40th min. Those bays are also most often used by commercial vehicles and CEOs are likely to be strict when they see no loading with private cars.

You can stop on yellow lines to board someone but they need to be ready, or nearby if assistance needed (eg disabled, a child). Intoxicated is not likely to go down well.


Thank you, that does make it clear. The definition seems to be that 'Loading' means 'Loading into a vehicle from the kerbside' and does not mean 'loading from a nearby building into a vehicle' - I say this as it would be very easy for a trip into a nearby building to collect or deliver an item to take 10+ minutes, especially if your customer was on the top floor of a nearby building.

Is it the responsibility of each local authority to publish their own definition of 'loading', or is there a nationally agreed definition which all local authorities must adhere to?
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Incandescent
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:15
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Loading applies to goods only. There is no real legal definition of it, (typical English law fudge), but is generally meant as unloading or loading goods and the activities essential to that activity. Where a council wishes to restrict this to commercial loading, it is done by making the bay available for commercial good-carrying vehicles only, not the nature of the goods.

As far as your wife is concerned, the activity is boarding/alighting passengers, nothing else.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:17
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Going off the point now on loading but if it's a proper exemption it can take longer say to get a heavy item to a top floor company.

There's another point about these Camden shared use bays w'eve seen before but not sure if anything has been successful. There were two contraventions in the bay at this time and picking one may not be correct by the council.

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 11:33
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Pay that one but for the future have a read

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...r%20Hamlets.pdf


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DancingDad
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 11:43
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The other point on loading, whether in bays or on yellow lines, is it can take as long as needed (up to maximum signed) but not one second more.
So loading the missus, assuming she needed assistance, may take ten minutes if that involved time to find her, hoik her over your shoulder and stuff her in the boot. But if it included a crafty pint or game of darts, that is not included and not allowed.
The link PBM gives treats it more seriously and does reflect how adjudicators treat the exemption. Applies outside of London as well.
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 20:05
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QUOTE (Stu131324 @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:36) *
By assistance I was referring to the reply that said 'it depends if she was legless or not' - she was, though not anatomically, just through intoxication.

If she required assistance - whether through disability, illness or intoxication - the assisted boarding exemption will apply. However you will need to justify how long it took to get the wife to the car. If she has a receipt from the pub that would be ideal, but failing that even a bank statement showing that she must have had a few, and crucially that the last transaction took place before you would have got to her that would support your case.

Failing that, a witness statement from the pub staff might be needed, unless they have CCTV.


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