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using mobile phone when stationary
SPARKY26
post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:53
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Hi all is it still a Offence to use your hand held device stationary at a set of lights or in traffic jam if your cars engine cuts off when stopped.
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post Sun, 29 Jul 2018 - 19:53
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samthecat
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 15:57
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QUOTE (jdh @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:46) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Mon, 30 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
Nobody has taken into account electric cars with keyless 'ignition' or shall we say switch on.

I have, and the conclusion I reached is that the safe bet is to disable any such feature.

To flip that round somewhat some of the EVs have app control etc for various functions, you could be sat in the car on a public road while it's charging and have the cabin heaters etc going but the car not in a state where it could actually be made to go by that person. Are they in control? driving? does that change if they're in passenger seat?


If the individual was in the passenger seat and the car wasn't able to move then it would be a stretch to suggest that they were driving.


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DancingDad
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 16:09
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Aren't some of these scenarios conflating driving with being in control?
If I park, handbrake on, engine off, I am in control but I am not driving.
Doesn't matter if all I need to do is turn key, press start or simply press the go pedal, I am still not driving and won't be until I take positive action to drive.
The difference to me is whether simply stationary as part of driving or parked, which IMO cannot be driving.
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facade
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 17:33
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Taking into account the massive amount of scenarios that would have to be covered by minutiae in the legislation, it seems to me by anecdotal observation, that what the Police do is simply give you a ticket if you hold a 'phone in the driving seat unless the car is parked in a parking space, or 6" from the kerb, with the engine off and the handbrake on. You are then free to go to court and demonstrate that what you were actually doing was not "driving" (or that you were making a 999 call) if you wish.
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Redivi
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 17:57
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When it was only £100/3 points most people would simply pay up rather than go to the time and expense of contesting it

Now it's £200/6 points, it becomes worth the effort and we might see some case law

It is a disgrace that, 12 years after the legislation was introduced as an amendment to the Construction & Use Regulations, we still don't know what either Driving or Using means

This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 17:57
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cp8759
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 18:05
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 18:57) *
When it was only £100/3 points most people would simply pay up rather than go to the time and expense of contesting it

Now it's £200/6 points, it becomes worth the effort and we might see some case law

It is a disgrace that, 12 years after the legislation was introduced as an amendment to the Construction & Use Regulations, we still don't know what either Driving or Using means

I'm not sure it's a disgrace, I've used my phone in the car for years and it's never caused me a problem. As I said earlier, you can pick up a car mount for your phone for a pittance nowadays.


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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 18:48
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QUOTE (jdh @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
To flip that round somewhat some of the EVs have app control etc for various functions, you could be sat in the car on a public road while it's charging and have the cabin heaters etc going but the car not in a state where it could actually be made to go by that person. Are they in control? driving? does that change if they're in passenger seat?

If the car cannot be driven, as it will be if it is plugged in to a charger, then of course you cannot be driving it.

If you are ditzy and drive off with the cord attached then you are then driving in a car that should not be driven.

This has always been the same - the common sleeping off a couple of drinks in the car. If your keys are in the boot it is mostly accepted that the car cannot be driven at that stage, even though it is capable of being driven if you get out of the car first.
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666
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 21:45
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 18:48) *
QUOTE (jdh @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 15:13) *
To flip that round somewhat some of the EVs have app control etc for various functions, you could be sat in the car on a public road while it's charging and have the cabin heaters etc going but the car not in a state where it could actually be made to go by that person. Are they in control? driving? does that change if they're in passenger seat?

If the car cannot be driven, as it will be if it is plugged in to a charger, then of course you cannot be driving it.

If you are ditzy and drive off with the cord attached then you are then driving in a car that should not be driven.

This has always been the same - the common sleeping off a couple of drinks in the car. If your keys are in the boot it is mostly accepted that the car cannot be driven at that stage, even though it is capable of being driven if you get out of the car first.

Isn't that different? The issue there is whether you're "in charge" rather then "driving".
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DancingDad
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 22:45) *
.........Isn't that different? The issue there is whether you're "in charge" rather then "driving".

That's what I was getting at earlier.
Mobile phone law is clear on one thing, it only applies when driving.
I may be in charge of the car but if parked, I am not driving.

Not sure keys n the boot would count as not being in charge if the car had keyless ignition btw rolleyes.gif
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Korting
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 08:24
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As I understand it, the legislation states that for the offence to be committed the engine must be running. It doesn't state that they keys need to be removed from the ignition. The legislation was brought out before we had keyless ignition and start stop technology. EV's are different, they dont have a key, and there's no engine to run, so how would a police officer know if the car was as some have suggested in the 'on' mode. To make things even more complicated, most modern cars dont have a tradition handbrake, they're all controlled electronically by pushing a button.

Even so, you can have a situation where you have parked up, engine off, but car set to accessory mode whilst using a mobile phone. In that scenario you haven't committed any offence.
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Redivi
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 08:33
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Another example of the problem with the legislation

When it was introduced, the main function of phones was communication - making calls and sending messages
They had few other functions

In the famous Jimmy Carr case, using the phone as a voice recorder wasn't held to be using it for the purpose of the legislation
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StuartBu
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 11:26
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QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 09:24) *
As I understand it, the legislation states that for the offence to be committed the engine must be running. It doesn't state that they keys need to be removed from the ignition. The legislation was brought out before we had keyless ignition and start stop technology. EV's are different, they dont have a key, and there's no engine to run, so how would a police officer know if the car was as some have suggested in the 'on' mode. To make things even more complicated, most modern cars dont have a tradition handbrake, they're all controlled electronically by pushing a button.

Even so, you can have a situation where you have parked up, engine off, but car set to accessory mode whilst using a mobile phone. In that scenario you haven't committed any offence.


Ive been in a few taxis recently and all the drivers thought start-stop was something new .....many many years ago-probably early 80's- my next door neighbour had a VW that had that very thing ..there's nothing new under the Sun.
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Steve_999
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 12:03
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QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 09:24) *
As I understand it, the legislation states that for the offence to be committed the engine must be running.. . . . . . . .


Where on earth did you get that from?
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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 12:29
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QUOTE (Steve_999 @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 13:03) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 09:24) *
As I understand it, the legislation states that for the offence to be committed the engine must be running.. . . . . . . .


Where on earth did you get that from?

+1, the legislation says no such thing.


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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 13:46
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I use the phrase in charge to cover both driving and supervising. The phrase used in the former is "drive".

I know people dislike the wording but I have come around to it. We forever see people on here complaining they don't understand seemingly simple concepts like streetlights = 30mph.

Well here is a law that is very simple to accurately communicate. If you are driving, you cannot use your phone. If the police disagree with your interpretation of driving then you can test your version in court.

In reality my understanding has always been that if you have pulled off the main carriageway and are stationary, you are very unlikely to attract police attention. In fact I think if you asked most drivers they would say you must pull over to take a call on a handheld mobile. Anything more and you risk if not points and money than certainly time.
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nigelbb
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 08:54
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Surely you don't have to be pulled off the main carriageway to legally make a handheld phone call?

If the car is parked in the street & you get in you could make a phone call before starting off. You are not driving the car until...well... until you are driving the car i.e. with the engine running, in gear & handbrake off.

Conversely if you pull up & park the car with handbrake on, out of gear & ignition switched off you have ceased driving & may legally make a handheld call even though you may still be on the main carriageway.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 10:04
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I think you are using a different definition to NTM, I thing he's saying pulled off the travelling lanes (so in a row of parked cars, or parking where cars park).


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Redivi
post Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 10:42
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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 09:24) *
As I understand it, the legislation states that for the offence to be committed the engine must be running. It doesn't state that they keys need to be removed from the ignition. The legislation was brought out before we had keyless ignition and start stop technology. EV's are different, they dont have a key, and there's no engine to run, so how would a police officer know if the car was as some have suggested in the 'on' mode. To make things even more complicated, most modern cars dont have a tradition handbrake, they're all controlled electronically by pushing a button.

Even so, you can have a situation where you have parked up, engine off, but car set to accessory mode whilst using a mobile phone. In that scenario you haven't committed any offence.


Ive been in a few taxis recently and all the drivers thought start-stop was something new .....many many years ago-probably early 80's- my next door neighbour had a VW that had that very thing ..there's nothing new under the Sun.

I complained a few months ago about a VW van I hired that kept cutting out at roundabouts

They hadn't told me about stop-start

The yellow engine-management light came on as I drove home and it had lost some power so assumed the stalling had been a developing fault
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