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PCN Redbridge Council, Advice needed on process
Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 19:34
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Hi All, just found out about this site. I'll try make this post as easy as possible to read.

Received a PCN in redbridge in december for 'PARKING IN A RESTRICTED STREET DURING PRESCRIBED HOURS'.

I was on a single yellow line at 17:10. Let me be clear there was NO sign on this road relating to parking and the road is NOT in a controlled parking zone. There was a post with a sign missing so I assume a sign was here in the past.

Sent informal appeal along with all evidence and it was rejected giving assumptions as to why I received the PCN not facts. 'It is possible I was parked in a controlled parking zone' etc. I actually checked online and rang the council. Definately not a controlled parking zone.

Just started formal appeal process today realistically they should know the sign is missing and see it from my photos. I took photos of most of the signs which were on street lights relating to littering and non working street lights. I also sent the photo of the post with the missing sign. Any advice on if this will be enough evidence?

Also if it is rejected and I have to appeal to a tribunal, I am quite far from where the tribunal is and am not based in London. I also experience anxiety issues and it would be a nightmare if I did have to go there. Is there any way I could have it moved to a different location or other options?

Hopefully they should see sense anyway and accept the formal appeal at the first formal stage. Thanks for your help.
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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 11:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 10:23) *
So wheres the sign with the info about parking restrictions on a single yellow line because there still isnt one.


Yes there is. A traffic authority may dispense with timeplates in each road subject to conditions.

In this case the following apply:

controlled parking zone”

(a)an area—
(i)in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings (except where parking spaces have been provided, where entrance to or exit from the road is made, where there is a prohibition or restriction on waiting, stopping, loading or unloading indicated by a different sign or where there is a crossing) whether or not an upright sign to indicate the same prohibition is placed in conjunction with the line or kerb marking; and
(ii)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 1 or 3 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/5/made


The informal rejection still says i was only allowed to load or unload. Yet theres no sign saying this. If the only sign is that zone entry sign on the a12 then thats not good enough surely
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Neil B
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 12:02
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 11:42) *
The informal rejection still says i was only allowed to load or unload. Yet theres no sign saying this. If the only sign is that zone entry sign on the a12 then thats not good enough surely

The EP signs indicate a 'no waiting' restriction.
Motorists are expected to know what that means and what exemptions apply.
That you don't know the meaning of the sign is not a defence.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 12:22
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If the only sign is that zone entry sign on the a12 then thats not good enough surely


But it is, you need to bone up on your road markings meanings. A SYL is a prohibition on waiting(call it parking), it does not limit or control loading. Therefore a SYL without any loading restriction kerb 'blips' or sign conveys a restriction on waiting only, which is what they said.

You need to move on from this point.

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cp8759
post Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 16:45
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Wed, 20 Feb 2019 - 11:42) *
Yet theres no sign saying this. If the only sign is that zone entry sign on the a12 then thats not good enough surely

The law imputes knowledge (i.e. treats you as if you had actual knowledge) of all the Road Traffic Acts, and the entire contents of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, ignorance of the law is no defence. A single yellow line means "Waiting of vehicles prohibited for a time that is not continuous throughout the year" (see diagram 1017 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made), loading would only be prohibited if the council had also used diagram 1019 which means "Loading and unloading of vehicles prohibited for a time that is not continuous through the year". You might want to brush up on your traffic sign knowledge or you might have further problems.

As far as this PCN is concerned, I think your best bet here is to argue that the x-height of the sign is insufficient for traffic moving at 40 mph, see https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...02-x-height.pdf and also the table at page 22 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...ional-signs.pdf

This approach however does require you to determine the actual x height used by the council, either by getting confirmation from them, or by measuring the sign.


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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 16:40
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Please go back a few posts and view the image of my updated appeal emailed to the council and let me know if a tribunal would accept that. Thanks
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cp8759
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 16:40) *
Please go back a few posts and view the image of my updated appeal emailed to the council and let me know if a tribunal would accept that. Thanks

It's very unlikely they would accept that.

The signs were there are you are deemed to know what they mean. If you want to argue that, despite the fact that they conform with the regulations, the signs do not adequately convey the restriction, you will need to put forward evidence to this effect.

As I've said, the only issue I can see here is the x height of the signs, if you can show that the x-height falls outside the government guidelines, you can argue the signs are inadequate for the purposes of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. Just asserting that the signs are to small won't convince anyone.


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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 18:13
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Do we know why you parked there? A recent case in the same CPZ was someone attending a funeral. Not sure if that one reached a conclusion.

I don't think you'll win without a good reason. Any unsigned yellow line you have to suspect is in a CPZ. Now the fact that Redbridge do not put this CPZ on their map is a good point, but it still doesn't mean you can assume the yellow line is fair game.
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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 18:35
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I was picking something up from the shop round the corner. So if the officer had observed my car for more than TWO minutes he would have seen me loading my car which is allowed.

Any grounds on the 5-10min grace period?

As for the signs why do you assume thats the best grounds? Do they look too small? Who would notice these signs at 40mph in pitch black anyway its ridiculous.

So even the multiple calls where one even confirmed it wasnt a CPZ counts for nothing? Have this recorded by the way.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 21:01
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If by "picking something up from the shop round the corner" means you went shopping then this is not included in the loading exemption, so you 'd lose on this one.

There is no grace period on yellow lines. Seeing a yellow line should immediately alert you to a parking restriction, and if there are no signs in the immediate vicinity then it is almost certain that you are in a CPZ especially if this is London.

If you passed the CPZ entry signs you are assumed to have seen them, and if you claim you didn't, then you need to prove why. Signs placed in close proximity to others and also at locations where there are much more important hazards and potential hazards to occupy the normal motorist can be argued as inadequate. Appeals have been won on this in the past, but you have to make a good case to the adjudicator,the council will never give way, and always claim perfection. As they keep all your money if you pay-up you can see why. Me, cynical ? Heaven forbid !

From what I can see you are bang-to-rights, sorry to have to say it.
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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 21:49
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I didnt see the signs. I only see them after someone pointed them out here in forum. It was dec 8th at 5pm. Well after sunset. On a 40mph dual carriageway where everyone drives like a maniac cutting eachother up. Am i looking for stupid signs with tiny writing or am i making sure i dont crash into anyone? Its the latter.

If i have to pay then **** it i have to pay but seeing as im on benefits they can take £1 a week **** them

What about the part where if they had explained properly I was in a CPZ rather than chat complete nonsense, then tell me I wasnt in a CPZ I would of been able to pay £55 rather than be led to believe BY THE COUNCIL that I wasnt in a cpz leading me to believe I had grounds to appeal over the lack of signs?

I mean... surely a tribunal is gonna see regardless that i have been given the complete run around
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hcandersen
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:07
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If you ultimately appeal to the adjudicator and lose then you would have to pay the full penalty within 28 days or risk it being increased.

You cannot dictate how you pay. Eventually you would find bailiffs at your door, all for the sake of misplaced annoyance and unwillingness to accept your mistake.

Oh well, if that's your plan, then it's a poor one.

All I could suggest is saving a couple of pounds a week between now and the last date for payment of the penalty after you've exhausted the appeals process.
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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:45
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Well.. councils are always making payment plans for council tax etc rather than wasting more money taking people to court over a few quid. It costs more for an application alone. But again,its there fault it increased to £55 by not telling me in the informal rejection why I got the ticket. Would that be grounds to pay 55? Rather than the 110
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cp8759
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 21:01
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:45) *
Well.. councils are always making payment plans for council tax etc rather than wasting more money taking people to court over a few quid. It costs more for an application alone. But again,its there fault it increased to £55 by not telling me in the informal rejection why I got the ticket. Would that be grounds to pay 55? Rather than the 110

Look at the end of the day you could argue that the signs were hard to see at 40 mph, but your chances would be hugely increased if you were to make a technical appeal on the basis that at 40 mph, the signs would not be readable over a large enough distance to be noticed.

In fact, I think if you can show the signs were to small, based on the published government guidance on x-heights, you are virtually guaranteed to win. But you seem keen on ignoring my advice and just winging it, so while I wish you luck I'm not sure I can help you any more than I already have.

If you change your mind and make an effort to find out what the x-height of the signs is, I'll do the calculations for you to determine whether they're inadequate.


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Neil B
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 21:29
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:45) *
Well.. councils are always making payment plans for council tax etc rather than wasting more money taking people to court over a few quid. It costs more for an application alone.

Do you mean this issue?
There is no court in the way it sounds like you think.
Your chance of a payment plan is zero.

That's not what PMB meant.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 21:01) *
QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Thu, 21 Feb 2019 - 22:45) *
Well.. councils are always making payment plans for council tax etc rather than wasting more money taking people to court over a few quid. It costs more for an application alone. But again,its there fault it increased to £55 by not telling me in the informal rejection why I got the ticket. Would that be grounds to pay 55? Rather than the 110

Look at the end of the day you could argue that the signs were hard to see at 40 mph, but your chances would be hugely increased if you were to make a technical appeal on the basis that at 40 mph, the signs would not be readable over a large enough distance to be noticed.

In fact, I think if you can show the signs were to small, based on the published government guidance on x-heights, you are virtually guaranteed to win. But you seem keen on ignoring my advice and just winging it, so while I wish you luck I'm not sure I can help you any more than I already have.

If you change your mind and make an effort to find out what the x-height of the signs is, I'll do the calculations for you to determine whether they're inadequate.


I havnt ignored your advice at all ive looked at everything you showed me. Im not planning on winging it at all. All the information in my updated email appeal is clear and each paragraph has valid points which would be stupid if they ignored it.

As for the sign height. I looked at the tables and charts and it looked like some crazy maths I havnt done in years and it made zero sense to me. Is there a way i can find the information on the size of these signs without having to go there with a tape measure looking like a idiot. Would the council have the official measurements and would they be trusted?

In terms of a payment plan being zero. May be zero for the council or tribunal to offer it. However if I went to court when the council apply and explained to a judge that I had no means of paying the full amount and they ignored my offer of a payment plan the judge will be asking why a payment plan wasnt accepted and instead felt it necessary to waste court time. Court fees may be a different story but it is possible a judge would deem it their fault for it going that far therefore waiving me having to pay for it. I am speaking from experience of court.

This post has been edited by FinalFormPotato: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:55
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Neil B
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:35
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49) *
if I went to court when the council apply and explained to a judge

What court and what judge?



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:36
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49) *
As for the sign height. I looked at the tables and charts and it looked like some crazy maths I havnt done in years and it made zero sense to me. Is there a way i can find the information on the size of these signs without having to go there with a tape measure looking like a idiot. Would the council have the official measurements and would they be trusted?

As I've said I'll do the crazy maths stuff if you let me know what the sign's x-height is. First you need to understand what the x-height is, so read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height hopefully it should be clear (if it's not, please ask). As for getting the information, your best bet is to go there with a tape measure. You could ask the council, but it would be pot luck whether they would even know the answer.

And don't underestimate the value of using a tape measure, it turned out rather well for this guy http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1369972

QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49) *
In terms of a payment plan being zero. May be zero for the council or tribunal to offer it. However if I went to court when the council apply and explained to a judge that I had no means of paying the full amount and they ignored my offer of a payment plan the judge will be asking why a payment plan wasnt accepted and instead felt it necessary to waste court time. Court fees may be a different story but it is possible a judge would deem it their fault for it going that far therefore waiving me having to pay for it. I am speaking from experience of court.

You misunderstand: There is no judge and there is no court hearing. Your only hearing is at the tribunal: if you lose, you must pay within 28 days. If you don't, the council will issue a charge certificate increasing the penalty by 50%. If you still don't pay, the council will apply for an Order for Recovery, which will be granted automatically by the county court's traffic enforcement centre, this will increase the penalty by a further £8. If you still don't pay, a warrant will be issued for bailiffs to come to your house. See https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process for further details.

If you think about it, it would be a massive waste of resources if every case had to be heard twice, once in the tribunal and then again in court. The system Parliament has put in place is that only the tribunal has jurisdiction to deal with the merits of the case, the court only gets involved for enforcement purposes, and this is simply because it was simpler to put enforcement in the hands of the county court bailiffs, than it would have been to create a new class of "tribunal enforcement agents" with all the administrative faff that that would involve.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:38


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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:36) *
QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49) *
As for the sign height. I looked at the tables and charts and it looked like some crazy maths I havnt done in years and it made zero sense to me. Is there a way i can find the information on the size of these signs without having to go there with a tape measure looking like a idiot. Would the council have the official measurements and would they be trusted?

As I've said I'll do the crazy maths stuff if you let me know what the sign's x-height is. First you need to understand what the x-height is, so read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-height hopefully it should be clear (if it's not, please ask). As for getting the information, your best bet is to go there with a tape measure. You could ask the council, but it would be pot luck whether they would even know the answer.

And don't underestimate the value of using a tape measure, it turned out rather well for this guy http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1369972

QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 17:49) *
In terms of a payment plan being zero. May be zero for the council or tribunal to offer it. However if I went to court when the council apply and explained to a judge that I had no means of paying the full amount and they ignored my offer of a payment plan the judge will be asking why a payment plan wasnt accepted and instead felt it necessary to waste court time. Court fees may be a different story but it is possible a judge would deem it their fault for it going that far therefore waiving me having to pay for it. I am speaking from experience of court.

You misunderstand: There is no judge and there is no court hearing. Your only hearing is at the tribunal: if you lose, you must pay within 28 days. If you don't, the council will issue a charge certificate increasing the penalty by 50%. If you still don't pay, the council will apply for an Order for Recovery, which will be granted automatically by the county court's traffic enforcement centre, this will increase the penalty by a further £8. If you still don't pay, a warrant will be issued for bailiffs to come to your house. See https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process for further details.

If you think about it, it would be a massive waste of resources if every case had to be heard twice, once in the tribunal and then again in court. The system Parliament has put in place is that only the tribunal has jurisdiction to deal with the merits of the case, the court only gets involved for enforcement purposes, and this is simply because it was simpler to put enforcement in the hands of the county court bailiffs, than it would have been to create a new class of "tribunal enforcement agents" with all the administrative faff that that would involve.


Ok i get ya, didnt realise the process was gonna be so different compared to debt in general. Thats what I know of and I assumed wrongly it would be a similar process.

Ok so now on to the wiki. I dont know what im looking at there tbh. But i will wait until i hear back from the council appeal then go down and measure it if i have to go to the tribunal.

Im guessing i should just measure everything? Height of ground to bottom of sign, height of ground to top of sign. Height and width of sign. Height and width of lettering. Everything.... im guessing both signs on the left and right side of the road.

Finally why do you think I should do this. From looking at the sign do you think it doesnt comply with regulations?
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cp8759
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 19:56
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QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:54) *
Im guessing i should just measure everything? Height of ground to bottom of sign, height of ground to top of sign. Height and width of sign. Height and width of lettering. Everything.... im guessing both signs on the left and right side of the road.

You only need to measure the x-height of the letters, everything else (Height of ground to bottom of sign, height of ground to top of sign. Height and width of sign. Height and width of lettering) is irrelevant. The x height is the height of a lower case x, basically the distance between the red baseline and the median line in the image below:



There is the issue that the wording we're concerned with, which says "Mon - Sat 8.30 am 6.30 pm", doesn't actually contain an x. So you'll just have to measure the height of the letters o, n, a and m and we'll have to use that as an approximation of the actual x-height. Obviously take photos of each letter next to a tape measure, because if the letters are too small, you'll need evidence to confirm this at the tribunal.

QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:54) *
Finally why do you think I should do this. From looking at the sign do you think it doesnt comply with regulations?

I don't know if it complies, just looking at Google Street View it's impossible to tell. What I can tell you is that, if we can prove from your photos of the letters that the wording is too small, you are almost certain to win.

I would for obvious health and safety reasons suggest that you only measure the nearside sign, I'm sure the two signs are identical in any case.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 19:59


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Guest_FinalFormPotato_*
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 20:25
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 19:56) *
QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:54) *
Im guessing i should just measure everything? Height of ground to bottom of sign, height of ground to top of sign. Height and width of sign. Height and width of lettering. Everything.... im guessing both signs on the left and right side of the road.

You only need to measure the x-height of the letters, everything else (Height of ground to bottom of sign, height of ground to top of sign. Height and width of sign. Height and width of lettering) is irrelevant. The x height is the height of a lower case x, basically the distance between the red baseline and the median line in the image below:



There is the issue that the wording we're concerned with, which says "Mon - Sat 8.30 am 6.30 pm", doesn't actually contain an x. So you'll just have to measure the height of the letters o, n, a and m and we'll have to use that as an approximation of the actual x-height. Obviously take photos of each letter next to a tape measure, because if the letters are too small, you'll need evidence to confirm this at the tribunal.

QUOTE (FinalFormPotato @ Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 18:54) *
Finally why do you think I should do this. From looking at the sign do you think it doesnt comply with regulations?

I don't know if it complies, just looking at Google Street View it's impossible to tell. What I can tell you is that, if we can prove from your photos of the letters that the wording is too small, you are almost certain to win.

I would for obvious health and safety reasons suggest that you only measure the nearside sign, I'm sure the two signs are identical in any case.

Ok i dont know when i'll do it probably be a week at least no idea if i can even reach it they look quite tall. Do you get notified when i quote your post?
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