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FightBack Forums _ Private Parking Tickets & Clamping _ LCP PCN Harslden Plaza Car Park

Posted by: John Bravo Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:28
Post #1386964

Hi All,
This is a new PCN. I think this is becoming my new hobby :-)
https://ibb.co/b39a5y

The duration is 3h30min
The driver has paid for the 1st hour then was held by a physiotherapist and bought a ticket for another 1h. There is still 1h30min of unpaid parking.

This £100 does not look like a fair penalty considering the contravention.
Please advise.
Best regards,

Posted by: Dave65 Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 18:57
Post #1387064

First edit your post and remove anything that may ID the driver.
Refer only to "the driver" did this or that.

Posted by: John Bravo Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:47
Post #1387071

QUOTE (Dave65 @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:57) *
First edit your post and remove anything that may ID the driver.
Refer only to "the driver" did this or that.

What else should I remove? the picture? I have covered the details except the dates and times.

Posted by: peterguk Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:57
Post #1387074

QUOTE (John Bravo @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 20:47) *
QUOTE (Dave65 @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 19:57) *
First edit your post and remove anything that may ID the driver.
Refer only to "the driver" did this or that.

What else should I remove? the picture? I have covered the details except the dates and times.


Leave the picture - it doesn't identify the driver.

Posted by: John Bravo Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 20:05
Post #1387075

Anything else?

Posted by: John Bravo Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 20:24
Post #1387229

What are your thoughts? Any line of defence or is it better to pay in this case?

Posted by: Macapaca Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 21:18
Post #1387258

You have blanked out key helpful information like dates! Also you need to publish the reverse side of the PCN if you want any help.

Posted by: John Bravo Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 21:30
Post #1387262

https://ibb.co/cXMTAy

Time of breach of terms and conditions: 18/05/2018
Letter sent: 25/05/2018

Posted by: Macapaca Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 21:52
Post #1387269

Photos and locations of signs?

Posted by: John Bravo Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 22:21
Post #1387277

https://ibb.co/cJn4Hd
https://ibb.co/dn2h3J

I think signs are at the entrance to the parking.

Posted by: Macapaca Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 07:34
Post #1387300

What do they say and are they readable? You are asking for help but not making it easy for anybody to help you. Unless anybody can identify a technical loophole you will be struggling to avoid paying.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 08:40
Post #1387319

Before thinking of paying, have a look and find out if their court claims are very high. You can gauge your chances then!

Check out the BMPA PADI database.

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 09:33
Post #1387332

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 08:34) *
What do they say and are they readable? You are asking for help but not making it easy for anybody to help you. Unless anybody can identify a technical loophole you will be struggling to avoid paying.

Unfortunately this was a one off visit to that place. I live 15 miles away on the other side of London. This is one of this cases where I went to a new place.

https://ibb.co/bL5xNo
https://ibb.co/hcDj2o

As you can see they put signs all over the place, but I cannot get pictures of higher quality to show what is actually written on them. This is basically a shopping area: Tesco Metro, Pound and etc.

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 09:40) *
Before thinking of paying, have a look and find out if their court claims are very high. You can gauge your chances then!

Check out the BMPA PADI database.

Please can I get the link to it?

Posted by: Macapaca Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 10:11
Post #1387338

I appreciate it is 15 miles away but the signs define what contract you entered into.

http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/LCP_Parking_Services.html

Currently indicating zero risk of Court!! There have been no cases going to court in 2018 and only 6 in 8000 in 2017. It is basically uneconomic for these companies to go to Court hence they generally don't bother no matter how many threats they issue. Toothless tigers!

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 10:23
Post #1387342

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 11:11) *
I appreciate it is 15 miles away but the signs define what contract you entered into.

http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/LCP_Parking_Services.html

Currently indicating zero risk of Court!! There have been no cases going to court in 2018 and only 6 in 8000 in 2017. It is basically uneconomic for these companies to go to Court hence they generally don't bother no matter how many threats they issue. Toothless tigers!


I have found a thread on MoneySavingsExpert re the Harlsden Plaza and asked the man to share his pictures of the signage - his links to photos in the thread have expired.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5522845

What should I then do with these toothless tigers? Let them roar? smile.gif

Posted by: Macapaca Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 10:31
Post #1387344

Yes, let them roar. However it is worth getting those pictures if you can as it might identify a technicality which would put the tiger in the cage. Follow the appeals process but then ignore debt collection letters but keep copies of everything. Watch put for a LBA will will need to be formally responded to. It is quite entertaining watching a tiger gnash its gums!

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 12:04
Post #1387375

Signage is all that makes these into a "contracts" issue, and if the signs are missing, cant be read, dontt actuall offer a contract then there isnt a contract.

Posted by: John Bravo Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 10:57
Post #1387627

Ok, what should I put as my representation then?

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 11:03
Post #1387629

What has your research on here and MSE parking forum -> Newbies thread told you you should put in your appea;L/

Posted by: John Bravo Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 11:40
Post #1387641

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 12:03) *
What has your research on here and MSE parking forum -> Newbies thread told you you should put in your appea;L/

I am going with the template from here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
and I attach pictures of two parking receipts for their consent so my overstay is 1h30min not 2h30min straight.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:04
Post #1387702

Which is still an overstay outside of grace periods, so obviously POPLA will say thats a breach.

What does "held by the physio" mean? Appointment overran?

Posted by: John Bravo Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:06
Post #1387704

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 15:04) *
Which is still an overstay outside of grace periods, so obviously POPLA will say thats a breach.

What does "held by the physio" mean? Appointment overran?

Correct

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:25
Post #1387710

So frustration of contract would be an obvious answer there!

It is a legal concept - for reaosns outside of their control, the driver was unable to comply with the terms of the proferred contract. The contract was therefore frustrated, and it is settled law that a ftrustrated contract cannot attract any charge. This is something the Operator would be well aware of gifven the nature of the site, and shoul dhave procedures to deal with.

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 22:17
Post #1389648

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 15:25) *
So frustration of contract would be an obvious answer there!

It is a legal concept - for reaosns outside of their control, the driver was unable to comply with the terms of the proferred contract. The contract was therefore frustrated, and it is settled law that a ftrustrated contract cannot attract any charge. This is something the Operator would be well aware of gifven the nature of the site, and shoul dhave procedures to deal with.


Please can you point me out to some convincing sample I can use to express my frustration?

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 08:29
Post #1389698

Have you in the last week performed an obvious search or two?

Posted by: John Bravo Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 23:51
Post #1392471

I have been so busy I had no time to look into it and I think the system basically exploits working people so they give up and pay this bloody £60-100.

I have found a thread here about "frustration of contract" at some other car park
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=120153&st=20&start=20
not sure if this is usable.

I have also found some threads related to frustration
http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t105304-50.html
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t113484.html

Someone has challenged at the very same location, but the decision was not optimistic:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5522845

Not sure if I can use the wording from the 1st link.


Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 00:02
Post #1392472

By the way I am not the registered keeper so as who should appeal on their unsecure website http://lcpappeals.com ?

Posted by: Redivi Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:10
Post #1392500

Wait until the registered keeper receives a Notice to Keeper
It will probably contain errors that will prevent LCP from recovering payment if they don't know who was driving

This forum never supports telling lies
They can bite back if the parking company recognises the case

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:52
Post #1392512

Notice to keeper has been received nearly a month ago. The pictures of both sides are attached in my previous posts.
So far no one has found any problems with them.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:35
Post #1392522

Have you found any problems with them?
POfa schedule 4 para 9. Fairly simple list of requiremetns it must meet.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:49
Post #1392530

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:35) *
Have you found any problems with them?
POfa schedule 4 para 9. Fairly simple list of requiremetns it must meet.



(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

OK (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

I THINK OK (b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;

I MEAN IT SAYS ONLY ABOUT BREACH OF CONTRACT AND £60©describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—

(i)specified in the notice; and

(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));

OK (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

OK (i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

OK (ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

OK (f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

OK (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

OK (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

OK the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

OK (g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

OK (h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

OK (i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

OK (3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).

(4)The notice must be given by—

OK (a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

OK (b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

OK (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

(OK 6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

I THINK OK (7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.

(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

OK (a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and

OK (b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:02
Post #1392540

Did they give the warnign to keeper, about them being liable 28 days starting the day after the notice is given? Thats usually messed up. Thats (f) above.

"breach of contract" is not a description of the circumstances.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:17
Post #1392552

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:02) *
Did they give the warnign to keeper, about them being liable 28 days starting the day after the notice is given? Thats usually messed up. Thats (f) above.

"breach of contract" is not a description of the circumstances.

No more communication from them than just this Notice to Keeper.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:33
Post #1392564

I didnt ask if there was more communication

I asked specifically about the (f) requirement, which you have marked as OK. This is a commionly messed up area, where they give 28 days, or 29 days from date of issue, or 28 days frmo date of service, etc.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:39
Post #1392569

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:33) *
I didnt ask if there was more communication

I asked specifically about the (f) requirement, which you have marked as OK. This is a commionly messed up area, where they give 28 days, or 29 days from date of issue, or 28 days frmo date of service, etc.


Ok, so it says in the NTK:
"If, after a period of 28 days, (beginning with the day after this notice is given), the amount requested in this Notice has not been paid in full, (or we have not informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper will, if the conditions set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 are met, be liable to pay this unpaid Parking Charge"

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:56
Post #1392579

Yep thats 92f covered.
damn.

But, as pointed out - they singularly failed to describe the circumstances. Breach of Contract itself does not describe any CONDUCT givnig raise to the charge.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:11
Post #1392586

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:56) *
Yep thats 92f covered.
damn.

But, as pointed out - they singularly failed to describe the circumstances. Breach of Contract itself does not describe any CONDUCT givnig raise to the charge.


Ok, so in this case should I go with procedural impropriety?

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:19
Post #1392597

No, why would you? Thats language for council tickets, where the term has actual meaning
They just have failed to meet the conditions specified in POFA including but not limited to... and as such you,a s keeper cannot be held liable. You suggest they contact the driver. You are not required to name them, and will not be doing so, and no adverse inference or assumption can be made.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:27
Post #1392601

Agree, so what should I do then?
Macapaca has asked to follow appeal process to the end, but then ignore debt collection letters as this LCP seems to be a toothless tiger and they take very few cases to court.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:29
Post #1392604

I just told you not to use the words procedural... as this isnt a council ticket
I didnt say not to appeal
I told you how to appeal
Its not a difficult example to follow. You could search for BOGOFF as well.

Posted by: Redivi Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 13:11
Post #1392645

"If, after a period of 28 days, (beginning with the day after this notice is given), the amount requested in this Notice has not been paid in full, (or we have not informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper will, if the conditions set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 are met, be liable to pay this unpaid Parking Charge"

I don't think it's nit-picking to argue that 9(2)(f) hasn't been met

POFA doesn't say that the registered keeper becomes liable for charge

Legal liability is the responsibility that someone has for their actions
If a keeper wasn't driving, he didn't commit the action
The liability therefore remains that of the driver
It's a thin argument that he becomes legally responsible for actions - failing to identify the driver - when he had no obligation to do so

What the PPC can acquire is a right to recover the driver's liability from the keeper (who may or may not be the registered keeper)

Parliament made the clear distinction when POFA 4(5) stated what the PPC could and could not recover
If the keeper actually became liable for the charge, he would also be liable for all the costs of collecting the charge


Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 15:06
Post #1392676

QUOTE
Dear Sirs

I refer to the above PCN dated X/X/X.

Please note that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
“describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

I was not the driver and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled by return.

Yours faithfully


or should I go with a template from here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:31
Post #1392764

please confirm that I can use one or both of these points in my reps

c). describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;
f). warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:17
Post #1392814

as pointed out, both can be used.

I wouldnt use te the MSE template for this.

Posted by: Macapaca Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:38
Post #1392817

There is no harm in using both points plus frustration of contract as suggested previously by Nosferatu. I would keep it simple on the lines of your draft rather than use one of the templates. I wouldn't agonise over it too much because LCP will reject it anyway and POPLA will probably adjudge that the PCN was correctly issued. Hence my previous advise that you should make it clear that you will not be paying LCP anything and then tough it out through the debt collection letter stage. They will pester you if they think you are a soft touch. The chances of them taking it to court are very slim.

Posted by: John Bravo Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:39
Post #1392844

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 08:38) *
There is no harm in using both points plus frustration of contract as suggested previously by Nosferatu. I would keep it simple on the lines of your draft rather than use one of the templates. I wouldn't agonise over it too much because LCP will reject it anyway and POPLA will probably adjudge that the PCN was correctly issued. Hence my previous advise that you should make it clear that you will not be paying LCP anything and then tough it out through the debt collection letter stage. They will pester you if they think you are a soft touch. The chances of them taking it to court are very slim.


Ok, can I just state this?
QUOTE
Dear Sirs

I refer to the above PCN xxx
The driver because of unforeseen circumstances could not precisely comply with your contract, but made attempts to.

Please note that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
1. “describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable"
2. "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given"

I was not the driver and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled by return.

Yours faithfully

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:43
Post #1392847

That does not state frustratoin. Use the exact term, frustration of contract.

Posted by: John Bravo Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:57
Post #1392891

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 10:43) *
That does not state frustratoin. Use the exact term, frustration of contract.

Ok, done that.
Thank you!

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:16
Post #1398239

Hi again,
I have the rejection from LCP and code to appeal at POPLA.
I have 28 days from 10th of July to appeal at POPLA.
They have sent a bunch of stuff in the email: BPA code of practice, ANPR TariffBoard Entrance images, LCP Park Information, their reply and POPLA form in DOCX.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:38
Post #1398255

Well you wont use any form
Do what everyone does, create a word doc with embedded evidence in it. Save as PDF, and upload on the website under other. Easy.

Show us your draft when youve got it ready. Rejection was expected.

Posted by: John Bravo Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 22:14
Post #1405320

I don't think I have any evidence.

Posted by: ostell Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 06:40
Post #1405350

I you will lose the change to appeal to POPLA very soon.

Your evidence is to list the POFA failures, your belief that they dint have a contract and you want them to procve that they havfe an actual contract. Look aroound

Posted by: Macapaca Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 07:33
Post #1405359

Your POPLA appeal should use the same evidence that you have been discussing so far in this thread! Post your draft here so that you can get some feedback on presentation and wording.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 08:04
Post #1405374

You waited 3 weeks, wasting 3 weeks of your 28 days, to tell us nothing of any use?

Show us your appeal
today

It should be written now, and the evidence was given already. Get on with it!

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 11:13
Post #1405475

Hi agian,
My apologies, but I was very busy last week and completely forgot to write this draft.

QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Parking Charge Reference number XXXXXXXX Vehicle registration: XXXXXXX
I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from LCP Parking Services.
My appeal to Parking Eye was rejected and they gave me POPLA code XXXXXXX.

The basis of my appeal is:

1. PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9 which states:
a). “describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable"
b). "warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given"
2. unforeseen circumstances, frustration of contract


I understand that at this point I should elaborate more on unforeseen circumstances, frustration of contract.
So far I have not stated who was the driver.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 11:56
Post #1405511

Wel you of coruse still dont state who the driver was....

You prove 1, by including copies of the NtK that omit these details. State that the requirements of POFA are strict and simple to follow, and a failure to include mandatory informaiton means they have failed to engage keeper liabilty, and a keeper appellant must succeed in this appeal.

Forfrustration - remember witness testimony IS evidence, so a witness statement (from an "occupant") PLUS anything you haveto show why the contract was frustrated (appointment overran could not leave etc)

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 17:59
Post #1405658

Great, at POPLA should I select "Other grounds for appeal"? It says Appeals based solely on the following grounds for appeal are less likely to be successful.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 19:34
Post #1405685

Gah!

Yes you pick other

If you'd look3d into it, you'd have seen that popla has that written before they'd heard ANY APPEALS AT ALL

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:51
Post #1405750

I think I am going to drop the frustration of contract bit because I am unable to get the witness statement on time.

Posted by: Macapaca Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 06:32
Post #1405785

I would still leave it in. It would be stronger with some evidence of course but still true without.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 09:41
Post #1405845

Leave it in.

Posted by: John Bravo Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:06
Post #1409419

LCP Parking has uploaded their evidence. I have 7 days to comment on their evidences.

Posted by: Macapaca Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 06:56
Post #1409453

QUOTE (John Bravo @ Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 23:06) *
LCP Parking has uploaded their evidence. I have 7 days to comment on their evidences.

If you want some help then post it here.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 08:10
Post #1409474

Yes?

So the obvious way to comment would be to review your appeal, review their response, and note anything
- where they havent responded to the appeal point at all
- where their response is clearly inadequate i.e. you asked for unredacted contract but they gave a wintess statement
- where their response doesnt stack up e.g. the contract isnt signed, has run out, the signs arent of the site, etc.

Posted by: cabbyman Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 18:24
Post #1409642

Any points they have made with which you disagree. You must rebut everything. If you are silent, the point is deemed accepted.

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 22:47
Post #1409732

I can see they have attached about 25 documents ~19MB in size.
I am going to add them here shortly.
Best regards,

Posted by: John Bravo Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 00:32
Post #1409735

https://ibb.co/ciba0z https://ibb.co/gM8Yne https://ibb.co/kM7hfz https://ibb.co/eBWm7e https://ibb.co/mzQqYK https://ibb.co/hJKZtK https://ibb.co/kX0w7e https://ibb.co/kRpZtK https://ibb.co/feNXfz

The standard PDF's from them are in ZIP archive: https://filebin.net/jp7umg70y2sm18t6

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 08:59
Post #1409776

Thats all well and good
WHat have YOU dont to review them?
Using the suggestiosn we've given?


You need to STroNGLY rebut that "frustration of contract" is "mititgating"

It is not
It is a complete defence against payment under contract for breach of contradct.

Posted by: John Bravo Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 16:08
Post #1410904

They say that I can and I should pay at the parking machine for the time I have overstayed, but looking at all these signs I cannot see any information how to accomplish it. Calling them or paying over the web is out of question if the phone is not available.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 23:18
Post #1411408

Your time is up

Please show us your rebuttal.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 12:34
Post #1420126

Hi again,
My apologies but I was away.
This is the decision from POPLA I have received a couple of days ago.

Decision: Unsuccessful
Assessor summary of operator case: The operator has issued the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) as the motorist overstayed.
Assessor summary of your case: The appellant’s case is that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9. The appellant also says there were unforeseen circumstances and frustration of contract. The appellant has provided a pdf document containing their appeal and a copy of the PCN.
Assessor supporting rational for decision

When parking on private land, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure they adhere to the terms and conditions of the car park. The operator has provided photographs of the signage explaining the terms and conditions, as displayed on signs throughout the site. The signage states: “24 HOUR PAY AND DISPLAY…MONDAY TO SUNDAY INCLUDING BANK HOLIDAYS…DAY RATE..Monday to Saturday 08:00 to 23:00…1 hr £2.00…4 hrs £8.00…A PARKING CHARGE NOTICE MAY BE ISSUED FOR:…NON PAYMENT IN LIEU OF PARKING TIME…BY PARKING YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS…FAILURE TO COMPLY MAY RESULT IN A PARKING CHARGE OF £100”. The operator has provided images from the Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) system, which shows the appellant’s vehicle, LC04 YTW, entered the site at 14:45 and exited the site at 18:18 on 19 May 2018. A total stay of three hours and 33 minutes. The operator has provided a list of the payments it received at the site during the period the appellant parked. The list contains two payments of £2.00 for the appellant’s vehicle registration. The operator has issued the PCN as the motorist overstayed. The appellant’s case is that the PCN fails to meet the obligations of Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012, Schedule 4, Section 9. The appellant also says there were unforeseen circumstances and frustration of contract. As the driver has not been identified within the appeal to POPLA or to the operator, I need to ensure that the operator has shown strict compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. PoFA 2012 is used to transfer liability from the driver of the vehicle to the keeper of the vehicle when the driver has not been identified. I have reviewed the Notice to Keeper and I am satisfied that the operator has shown strict compliance with PoFA 2012. As such, liability has been transferred to the keeper of the vehicle. When looking at appeals, POPLA considers whether a parking contract was formed and, if so, whether the motorist kept to the conditions of the contract. Even if a motorist presents mitigating circumstances setting out exceptional reasons why they did not keep to the parking conditions, POPLA cannot allow an appeal if a contract was formed and the motorist did not keep to the parking conditions. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that when they enter private land, they have understood and complied with the terms and conditions displayed throughout the site. The signage at the site is sufficient to make motorists aware of how much they are required to pay. If the motorist was in disagreement with the terms and conditions of the site or felt that the terms and conditions of the site could not be complied with, there would have been sufficient time to leave the site without entering into a contract with the operator. By remaining on the car park, the motorist accepted the terms and conditions displayed throughout the car park and entered into a contract with the operator. The operator has demonstrated that the motorist paid for two hours of parking but stayed for three hours and 33 minutes. I conclude that the motorist breached the terms and conditions by overstaying the period they had paid for. As the operator has demonstrated that it issued the PCN correctly and that it has transferred liability of the PCN to the keeper, I must refuse this appeal.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 12:53
Post #1420131

They entirely ignored the Frustration of Contract issue

Procedural error by POPLA. Immediate complaint.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 27 Sep 2018 - 15:26
Post #1420177

Should I email them based on what's on their website?

"Unhappy with our service POPLA

At POPLA we take complaints about our service very seriously. If you think that we have done something wrong please let us know so we have the chance to put things right quickly and effectively. Your complaint will help us learn from our mistakes and improve our service.

Sometimes the outcome of your appeal is not what you want to hear. Your appeal has independently been reviewed by a professional assessor taking into consideration the relevant law, regulatory rules, guidance and standards and the British Parking Association Code of Practice. You cannot challenge the outcome of your appeal with POPLA. Regardless, you should be satisfied with the level of service you have received free of charge from us. If you disagree with the outcome of your appeal, you will need to follow alternative routes.

We can only investigate complaints that involve allegations of poor service or performance, for example where we have:

treated you rudely;
failed to keep you updated on progress;
caused unnecessary delays;
failed to explain things properly; or
any other shortfall in service

If you have a complaint about the standard of service that we have provided, please send us an email to info@popla.co.uk "

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 15:57
Post #1422236

I have emailed info@popla few days ago but no response so far.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 08:11
Post #1422403

Hve you searched for any other email addresses? Written a letter? Tried something to escalate this?
You could in the meantime state to the PPC you are disputing this decision as they have ignored that no charge can be payable due to frustration of contract. This is not mitigation, this is a reason it should not have been issued AND is a reason it is not payable. Until POPLA has acknowledged and dealt with your complaint, they must hold off any action on their end, as this is a clear procedural error (failing to deal with an appeal point) by POPLA.

Posted by: John Bravo Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 00:44
Post #1423180

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 09:11) *
Hve you searched for any other email addresses? Written a letter? Tried something to escalate this?
You could in the meantime state to the PPC you are disputing this decision as they have ignored that no charge can be payable due to frustration of contract. This is not mitigation, this is a reason it should not have been issued AND is a reason it is not payable. Until POPLA has acknowledged and dealt with your complaint, they must hold off any action on their end, as this is a clear procedural error (failing to deal with an appeal point) by POPLA.

I have chased to the existing info@ email address.
Do you mean inform LCP? Who is PPC?
Best regards

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:03
Post #1423232

Private Parking company
Pointless chasing the smae email address.

Posted by: John Bravo Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 10:39
Post #1423776

POPLA has just came back and they forwarded my complaint to complaints department for review.

Posted by: John Bravo Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 22:45
Post #1424388

QUOTE
Your complaint about POPLA

Thank you for your email dated 2 October 2018 which was passed to me by the POPLA team as I am responsible for responding to complaints.

I note from your correspondence that you are unhappy with the decision reached by the assessor in your appeal against LCP Parking Services.

It is important to explain that it is not our remit to source evidence and documents from either party in support of their submission and our decisions are based on the evidence received from both parties at the time of the assessment. The decision reached is based on the information made available to the assessor at the time. We cannot accept or introduce new evidence that either party has not reviewed.

You quoted within your appeal to POPLA, “unforeseen circumstances, frustration of contract”. There is no information to indicate what the unforeseen circumstances were that led you to feel that there was a frustration of contract.

The assessor correctly assessed your appeal based on the grounds that you submitted. They correctly assessed that the operator followed the Protection of Freedom Act (PoFA) 2012. Further, the assessor identified that the operator offered you a contract on the date. By parking your vehicle, you implied your acceptance of this contract but failed to meet the terms offered, as such you breached the contract by remaining at the site for a period of one hour and 33 minutes longer than the time you purchased.

I have reviewed the assessor’s decision and I am satisfied that the outcome reached is correct. POPLA is a one-stage process; there is no opportunity for you to appeal the decision.

In closing, I am sorry that your experience of using our service has not been positive. While I understand this is not the outcome you had hoped for, our involvement in your appeal has now concluded. We have reached the end of our process and my response now concludes our complaints procedure.

As our involvement in your appeal has now concluded you may wish to pursue matters further. For independent legal advice, please contact Citizens Advice at: www.citizensadvice.org.uk or call 0345 404 05 06 (English) or 0345 404 0505 (Welsh).

We have reached the end of our process, it will not be appropriate to respond to any further correspondence on this matter. For clarity, if you choose to send us further correspondence, it will be noted but not responded to.

Posted by: nosferatu1001 Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:33
Post #1424422

So you literally stated "frustration of contract" and nothing more, despite being told waaaaay back to include the full details?
No wonder they rejected it as a valid point. Its not a silver bullet, you have to explain more.
You have the Witness Statement now yes?
In case they do court?

Posted by: John Bravo Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 19:18
Post #1442806

I have got a letter from ZZSP Limited, I think some debt collectors asking for £100 - charge + £70 of their admin fee.

Posted by: Macapaca Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 22:57
Post #1442871

If it is from debt collectors then completely ignore. They have absolutely no authority. Just keep an eye out for a LBC.

Posted by: Redivi Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 23:03
Post #1442872

Yes

Always ignore ZZPS

Posted by: John Bravo Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:36
Post #1451877

I have received two more reminders from QDR Solicitors. How are these people?

Posted by: Peter4321 Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:45
Post #1451883

QDR Solicitors are a wholly owned subsidiary of Wright Hassall LLP.

Posted by: John Bravo Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 19:12
Post #1452247

QUOTE (Peter4321 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:45) *
QDR Solicitors are a wholly owned subsidiary of Wright Hassall LLP.

What are the implications of them being a subsidiary of Wright Hassall LLP?

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