PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

[NIP Wizard] Location on NIP not straightforward
theatretony
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 10:26
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2021
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A64 York Road towards Leeds City, Between Temple View Road and Pontefract Lane, Leeds
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I know I drive down this route regular and know about the average speed limit - it has been there ages. But I am confused about the location.
It says to go onto the www.westyorkshirepas.com website but that is down.

If I was speeding I hold my hands up, but York Road is a notorious road and you cannot really speed as all cars are doing around 30.

Anyone else have any idea as to where the offence may have taken place?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:26:12 +0000
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 10:26
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
666
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 11:18
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,300
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



The average speed is calculated by measuring the time taken between the two locations stated. If the average is higher than the limit, it follows that you must have exceeded the limit at some point and so committed the offence, but it is not possible to pinpoint where.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NewJudge
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 11:44
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,744
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



The distance on York Road between Temple View Road and Pontefract Lane is probably less than 500m.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 12:12
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,503
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 11:44) *
The distance on York Road between Temple View Road and Pontefract Lane is probably less than 500m.

Agreed, the location couldn't be much clearer. I make it around 420 metres.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 12:31
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,195
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 10:26) *
]I know I drive down this route regular and know about the average speed limit

In case this is confusion and not a typo, there is no such thing as an average speed limit, all speed limits are instantaneous (that is any breach, however short, is an offence), it's just some speed cameras work on average speeds and don't measure an instantaneous speed.

What speed is alleged? Average speed camera systems are very accurate and the least prone to errors, whatever speed is alleged is almost certainly correct.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 12:31


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
theatretony
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:00
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



Yep, i have now noticed the area:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/2+Temple+Vi...#33;1m0!3e0

The speed was 39 miles an hour.

I go on the part of York Road at least twice a week and I KNOW that section and would not even dream of going that speed. Plus all the other traffic around would not allow it. These roadworks have been there well over a year.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:08
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,195
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



AS above, average systems are very accurate so you would have to work hard to find any sort of defect.

39/20 will qualify for an awareness course thus increasing the level of gamble you would take.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:09
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,503
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:00) *
I go on the part of York Road at least twice a week and I KNOW that section and would not even dream of going that speed. Plus all the other traffic around would not allow it. These roadworks have been there well over a year.

But the photographic evidence would seem to indicate you were doing 39?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:56
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 601
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



The speedmeter there is a spot-speed radar system.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
theatretony
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:19
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:09) *
QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 13:00) *
I go on the part of York Road at least twice a week and I KNOW that section and would not even dream of going that speed. Plus all the other traffic around would not allow it. These roadworks have been there well over a year.

But the photographic evidence would seem to indicate you were doing 39?


I would love to see the footage, but the website to view it is down: www.westyorkshirepas.com



And it seems I am not the only one to be caught in that exact place:

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news...oI0ibLI0nbhH6zo

26000......
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:22
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,195
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:19) *
I would love to see the footage, but the website to view it is down: www.westyorkshirepas.com

What 'footage'?

There will be an entry and exit photo from the ANPR cameras, there won't be a video.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:26
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,503
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Seems like you thought it was a 40mph limit then?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
theatretony
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:29
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:26) *
Seems like you thought it was a 40mph limit then?


That is what is most odd, I KNOW it is a 30 and has been for about a year, so would have no reason to travel at 40...

If I had a lapse in concentration, so be it. I am going to have to accept it as I cannot with reasonable doubt contend it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NewJudge
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 15:28
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,744
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:29) *
[If I had a lapse in concentration, so be it. I am going to have to accept it as I cannot with reasonable doubt contend it.

Just for clarification, if you believe the measurement of your speed cannot be relied upon, you have to prove "on the balance of probabilities" that it cannot. A measurement taken by an approved device operated in the correct manner is assumed to be accurate unless the contrary can be proved. The burden of that proof rests with you and simply casting doubt on its accuracy is not enough.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
theatretony
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 15:34
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



I know I am 'banged to rights' just cannot believe I was speeding there (although I was obviously).. Will know for future.

How long do you have to book an awareness course once I send it all back filled in?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 15:59
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 601
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:22) *
QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:19) *
I would love to see the footage, but the website to view it is down: www.westyorkshirepas.com

What 'footage'?

There will be an entry and exit photo from the ANPR cameras, there won't be a video.

Not for that camera there won’t
Vector SR there not SPECS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 22:30
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



The speed camera in question uses radar to measure your speed. (It does also use ANPR, but only for big brother style vehicle tracking for police and councils).

Radar is fallible. The cameras are meant to use a computer-applied grid as a secondary check (rather than the traditional road markings). Hopefully you can get the photos and they will show if the measured speed is wrong or not. Camera offices have been very laid back about checking these in the past.

The speed measurement is near instantaneous, not over a few hundred metres.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TryOut
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 22:54
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 601
Joined: 7 May 2019
Member No.: 103,734



QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 22:30) *
The speed camera in question uses radar to measure your speed. (It does also use ANPR, but only for big brother style vehicle tracking for police and councils).

No & No

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 22:30) *
Radar is fallible. The cameras are meant to use a computer-applied grid as a secondary check (rather than the traditional road markings). Hopefully you can get the photos and they will show if the measured speed is wrong or not. Camera offices have been very laid back about checking these in the past.

No. There is no grid.
However, the operator cannot export the violation record for process unless a second measurement is made by the operator and that second measurement passes. If a record exists for prosecution the second check must have been performed correctly.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 22:30) *
The speed measurement is near instantaneous, not over a few hundred metres.

No.
This radar is a tracking radar so is not "near instantaneous". While it doesn't track over hundreds of metres it does over several 10s of metres and uses more than one method of speed measurement within the radar mechanism.

OP, by all means have a look at the evidence if you choose court, but don't rely on unqualified advice in interpreting it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TonyS
post Thu, 18 Nov 2021 - 08:40
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,214
Joined: 24 Mar 2013
From: Scotland
Member No.: 60,732



QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:19) *
I would love to see the footage, but the website to view it is down: www.westyorkshirepas.com

That website seems alive now, although of course I don't have a reference number to put in as a test
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
theatretony
post Thu, 18 Nov 2021 - 09:49
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 57
Joined: 7 Jan 2009
From: Leeds
Member No.: 25,239



QUOTE (TonyS @ Thu, 18 Nov 2021 - 08:40) *
QUOTE (theatretony @ Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:19) *
I would love to see the footage, but the website to view it is down: www.westyorkshirepas.com

That website seems alive now, although of course I don't have a reference number to put in as a test


Is down again for me. Looks like they do not want people to look at the photos biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 10:00
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here