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50JL - Performing a prohibited turn (No left turn)
Sam9961
post Thu, 1 Apr 2021 - 07:52
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Hi

Please can you help me out with this PCN:

https://ibb.co/gwtRH8q
https://ibb.co/Z1K87qN

I challenged the PCN, but received the following Notice of Rejection:

https://ibb.co/JHT7Gpb
https://ibb.co/dDQs1Nb
https://ibb.co/LY5qqBc


I would be grateful if you could also confirm whether the PCN valid or not as the date of the alleged contravention was 6/1/21 and the date of the notice was 18/1/21, and I received it on 20/1/21, which exceeded 14 days.

Furthermore, I challenged the PCN on 1/2/21, and received the NoR on 18/3/21. A total of 44 days. Is this allowed?
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post Thu, 1 Apr 2021 - 07:52
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stamfordman
post Thu, 1 Apr 2021 - 09:59
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They get 28 days to issue a moving traffic PCN, and up to 3 months is considered reasonable to issue a notice of rejection.
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Sam9961
post Sat, 3 Apr 2021 - 14:12
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In my challenge I made a reference to the Tribunal Appeal case (ref. 2190302441) which had very similar circumstances to mine, if not identical, and which had its appeal allowed. But the Council dismissed it in NoR.

I intend to appeal the PCN. It would be most appreciated if you could help me out with any argument that may increase my chances of wining the appeal.

This post has been edited by Sam9961: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 - 09:12
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cp8759
post Sun, 4 Apr 2021 - 23:33
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If you want some useful advice I suggest you start from the beginning. Post the video and tell us the circumstances i.e. why did you make the turn.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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Sam9961
post Mon, 5 Apr 2021 - 15:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Apr 2021 - 00:33) *
If you want some useful advice I suggest you start from the beginning. Post the video and tell us the circumstances i.e. why did you make the turn.


Thanks for your response. How do I post the video?

This post has been edited by Sam9961: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 - 19:03
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Sam9961
post Mon, 5 Apr 2021 - 20:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 5 Apr 2021 - 00:33) *
If you want some useful advice I suggest you start from the beginning. Post the video and tell us the circumstances i.e. why did you make the turn.



The video is here:

https://imgur.com/1b7VhIW


Last time I used this road the left turn was not prohibited.


The deadline for appealing is approaching soon. Please can you let me know if I have good grounds for an appeal.

Many thanks.

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cp8759
post Tue, 6 Apr 2021 - 11:27
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I can't see any evidence of a bright advertising board opposite the junction, and if you wanted to pursue this you'd have to go back and get photos. Based on what you have so far, you have no grounds to appeal at all. If you can get some photos, put them on here and we'll have another look at it.

By the way when did you last use the road? It looks like the restriction has been in place for at least a couple of years.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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Sam9961
post Tue, 6 Apr 2021 - 14:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 6 Apr 2021 - 12:27) *
I can't see any evidence of a bright advertising board opposite the junction, and if you wanted to pursue this you'd have to go back and get photos. Based on what you have so far, you have no grounds to appeal at all. If you can get some photos, put them on here and we'll have another look at it.

By the way when did you last use the road? It looks like the restriction has been in place for at least a couple of years.


I will get photos, but of what and to prove what?

The Council in support of their PCN, they provided a photo and video footage which clearly show that the "No Left Turn" sign is completely blurred by a bright light, regardless whether the advertising board existed or not. Did you see the video?
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cp8759
post Tue, 6 Apr 2021 - 22:56
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I did see the video, did you read the case you quoted? The whole argument was that the sign was blurred by the advertising board. If you want to argue that the light is so bright that it is dazzling and you can't see the sign, that's a completely different argument to the case you quoted. Not that it might not be an equally valid argument, just that it's a different argument.

Until you can go back and get some pictures we can't really say much else.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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Sam9961
post Wed, 7 Apr 2021 - 06:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 6 Apr 2021 - 23:56) *
Until you can go back and get some pictures we can't really say much else.


Please can you be more specific. You keep asking for photos but you don’t say of what. The photos will be taken at night, correct?

Meanwhile, this is the GSV:

New Broadway & Longfield Avenue
https://goo.gl/maps/VUpJHqehugY7oXXU8
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Apr 2021 - 08:41
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Well you've brought up Amit Kapila v London Borough of Ealing (2190302441, 05 May 2019), where the adjudicator said:
I studied the photographs and, doing the best I can, find that from the perspective of the driver approaching the sign it would be contained within the rectangular shape of the advertising sign behind. In daylight that would not be a problem. However, looking at the respective illumination shown in the CCTV footage, if the two signs lined up as I have described, the effect of the illumination would, I find, significantly reduce the visibility of the ‘no left turn’ sign. On the evidence provided, I find that, in the unique circumstances that prevailed at the time, the ‘no left turn’ sign was not adequate to inform road users of the prohibition.
So, if you want to rely on that, you need to take photos to show two things:

1) From the perspective of the driver the sign would be contained within the rectangular shape of the advertising sign behind
2) The effect of the illumination of the advertising sign would significantly reduce the visibility of the no left turn sign.

If you can get photos that show this, great. If not, you can forget about relying on that case.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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Sam9961
post Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 00:48
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There is no advertising sign behind the "No left Turn" sign. Yet, the sign was still brightly lit so much so it rendered it inadequate to inform road users of the prohibition. This is evidently shown by the video footage and the photo. This is why I referred to the case to argue this fact.

The advertising sign aside, if I wanted to argue that the light was so bright that it was dazzling and I could not see the sign, how would I present this as a valid argument to the adjudicator?
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 09:13
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QUOTE (Sam9961 @ Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 01:48) *
There is no advertising sign behind the "No left Turn" sign.

Isn't there one on the other side of the road? Anyway, if you want to drop this argument then you'll have to drop Amit Kapila v London Borough of Ealing as well, but you're the one who brought that up. Did you actually read the case?

QUOTE (Sam9961 @ Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 01:48) *
The advertising sign aside, if I wanted to argue that the light was so bright that it was dazzling and I could not see the sign, how would I present this as a valid argument to the adjudicator?

With photos, maybe even a video, to illustrate the point. Until you get some evidence it's impossible to say how it should be presented.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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Sam9961
post Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 13:11
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I am going to rely on the Council video and photos as evidence in support of my appeal.

If you don’t have any other points that I need to bear in mind which may be relevant...,

Thank you, anyway.
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DWMB2
post Fri, 9 Apr 2021 - 10:35
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QUOTE (Sam9961 @ Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 14:11) *
I am going to rely on the Council video and photos as evidence in support of my appeal.


I'm not sure the council video/photos show what you think they show. The fact that the sign is blurry in the council's video could just be due to the video resolution - it doesn't show that the sign was illegible/obscured by light from your perspective as the driver at street level. You'd likely need your own evidence of the sign to successfully argue that point to an adjudicator.
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Apr 2021 - 21:00
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QUOTE (Sam9961 @ Thu, 8 Apr 2021 - 14:11) *
I am going to rely on the Council video and photos as evidence in support of my appeal.

Then you would lose, as the video just shows a straightforward contravention. If you want to have a chance on the signage I suggest you gather some evidence of your own.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer. I do not charge any fees, please stop asking me what my fees are.
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