PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

(27) Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway..., Why me!? :(
Lrihk
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 10:17
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



Hi all,

In the past, I ran into problems with PCNs for not displaying a valid parking ticket in NCP and Vinci car parks and from word of advice on the "moneysavingexpert" forums, they made me realised that I should just ignore PCNs from private car companies and now pass this information to all friends/people who run into this problem.

Now this is a whole different matter since I'm not actually dealing with private car companies, but the actual council and would appreiciate help please since I lack knowledge in this area and me being very skint this month due to moving to a new place etc.. I can't really afford to waste money on a PCN and pay the reduced fee in 8 days.. (I could, but will be living off peanuts..) so basically.. HELP ME PLEASE! sad.gif

I normally would pay these off otherwise..

I'll try to explain what happened briefly..

I parked my car on the side of the road as you do for work, and it being a busy day, most of the road sides were taken so I squeezed into one around a bend, behind the junction line because I was scared of getting a PCN because I've had 1 every month at the start of 2012 since moving down in London and it really takes the piss! Never had this problem in Wales.. Ticket Wardens are so petty here! mad.gif

Anyways, me thinking it was safe, I went to work and when I finished, there it was, a bloody PCN on my windscreen!

I was so confused to how I got it because everyone always parks here, and I parked here countless times before and not had any problem!

I had a similar problem before on my first day of work.. I put 2 wheels on a grass section of a pavement just oposite to where I got my recen PCN and the reason I did this is because I wanted to let cars get through easily and was being nice and polite in this estate and instead, I got a PCN... Never even knew that was a offense, but I paid it off.

If there's a good chance of me winning an appeal and not paying the fine, then I will gladly take it and use the money to buy my girlfriend something nice, but if my chances look slim, then I guess I will pay the fine and watch where I park next time.

It's just sooo frustrating that I've had one every month! sad.gif

I've attached pictures since I believe this is the same process which you guys will need in order to help me.. Hope the photos are ok.













Also here is the streetview of the road where it's on if it will help - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=keysham+av...276.96,,0,21.12

If you can help I would really appreciate it!

This post has been edited by Lrihk: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 10:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 10:17
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
makara
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 12:56
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,905
Joined: 11 Jul 2010
Member No.: 38,904



Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:11
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Are you saying you don't understand why you got a PCN?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:52
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?


I don't quite understand, but this is everything. What you see in the picture is what is on the ticket. I scanned it all.. :s

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:11) *
Are you saying you don't understand why you got a PCN?


I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 22:57
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?




Nope...

There is a flaw but it's the addition of 'and unless this PCN is challenged' on the front which is the rogue wording on Hounslow PCNs. Definitely worth incouding in any appeal to any Hounslow PCN on a windscreen as they seem happy to keep using this wording even though people have won cases at adjudication.



QUOTE (Lrihk @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:52) *
I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*




You mean, you were parked near to the dropped kerb but not in front of the angle of it. I can see what you mean as the angle of it is strange - but the position of your car could be considered to be blocking it - because you are stopping people with prams, etc, from using it to cross over to the one on the other side. Thing is, the two dropped kerbs are not even facing each other...they are both at an angle which is a slightly strange set up.

I would appeal - and why not? - saying you were not in front of the part of the kerb which is lowered to meet the road. From the photos, if you follow the line of the edge of the kerbstones demarcating this crossing place, I do agree you aren't adjacent to it in fact because of the weird angle of it and the way the pavement curves.

Then I suggest a final paragraph touching upon that PCN flaw, maybe saying if they still reject your appeal you will have no hesitation in continuing to appeal ultimately to adjudication. State that you are already aware - as are Hounslow Parking Services - that the wording of their PCN has been found at adjudication to be flawed and you will have no hesitiation in presenting your PCN to the adjudicators for scrutiny on that basis.


HTH
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 00:43
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



Did you take those pictures at the time?
Or some time later?
Are you able to view the Council's evidence pictures. Go here and enter the PCN number and car reg. https://www.e-paycobalt.com/hounslow
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 09:41
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 23:57) *
QUOTE (makara @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 13:56) *
Others -


the wording "if the penalty is not paid" is on the ticket - is that the flaw in Hounslow PCNs?? Or was it something else that's on this ticket?




Nope...

There is a flaw but it's the addition of 'and unless this PCN is challenged' on the front which is the rogue wording on Hounslow PCNs. Definitely worth incouding in any appeal to any Hounslow PCN on a windscreen as they seem happy to keep using this wording even though people have won cases at adjudication.



QUOTE (Lrihk @ Thu, 14 Jun 2012 - 14:52) *
I understand, why I got the PCN, but I don't understand how? I was not blocking the footway.. I was parked before and not in front. Also I never even came across problems like this before and never knew you can get fined for this. I've only experienced this and all my other fines only in London this year.. Before that, in my 6 years of driving. I've had no problems..

Shows how anal the wardens are in London and not as lax in Wales.. *sigh*




You mean, you were parked near to the dropped kerb but not in front of the angle of it. I can see what you mean as the angle of it is strange - but the position of your car could be considered to be blocking it - because you are stopping people with prams, etc, from using it to cross over to the one on the other side. Thing is, the two dropped kerbs are not even facing each other...they are both at an angle which is a slightly strange set up.

I would appeal - and why not? - saying you were not in front of the part of the kerb which is lowered to meet the road. From the photos, if you follow the line of the edge of the kerbstones demarcating this crossing place, I do agree you aren't adjacent to it in fact because of the weird angle of it and the way the pavement curves.

Then I suggest a final paragraph touching upon that PCN flaw, maybe saying if they still reject your appeal you will have no hesitation in continuing to appeal ultimately to adjudication. State that you are already aware - as are Hounslow Parking Services - that the wording of their PCN has been found at adjudication to be flawed and you will have no hesitiation in presenting your PCN to the adjudicators for scrutiny on that basis.


HTH


I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.

That's why I'm baffled, the drop curb is at a angle, same with the one opposite and the others if you look at the street map view. I wouldn't normally park in front of one anyway out of road etiquette.

If I was to appeal then get rejected will I have to pay the full fine or get a further extension after my rejection? Because I'll get paid by then and appealing may help in prolonging my reduced fee time for when I get paid, but again.. If it's a good chance I will get off scotch free then that is always better.

I take it, when I write the letter it has to be very precise and clear/professional? (I fail at writing letters..)

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 01:43) *
Did you take those pictures at the time?
Or some time later?
Are you able to view the Council's evidence pictures. Go here and enter the PCN number and car reg. https://www.e-paycobalt.com/hounslow


I took those pictures as soon as I came out of work and saw that I received a PCN, but here is the PCNs version of the photos as requested:

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 09:53
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



Seems like the camera was deliberately positioned and the photos selected to make it look like you were obstructing the dropped footway to a much greater extent than you actually were, if indeed you were obstructing?.

When you submit representations make sure that you ask for copies of any and all photos that the CEO took. As well as the CEO's notes

Is that a Renault Clio?I had no idea you could get a stretched limo version? Are the photos really like that?

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 09:56
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 10:07
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 10:53) *
Seems like the camera was deliberately positioned and the photos selected to make it look like you were obstructing the dropped footway to a much greater extent than you actually were, if indeed you were obstructing?.

When you submit representations make sure that you ask for copies of any and all photos that the CEO took. As well as the CEO's notes

Is that a Renault Clio?I had no idea you could get a stretched limo version? Are the photos really like that?


Ha, you joker! Yes, the pictures are like that. I didn't include 3 of the pictures because one of them where of the road sign and 2 is off the PCN on my windscreen, but I guess that's all the pictures taken since it is 6 of them in total.

Is there like a guideline in how to write to the council for appealing or should I just write a draft up and post it on here? (you guys will laugh at my bad grammar..)

I appreciate everyone who's taken their time to read my thread and post on it.

Thanks smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Enceladus
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 10:36
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,721
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Member No.: 25,447



There are no guideline or template letters on this forum. Bespoke service for all.

Your PCN is dated Tues the 12th June. The 14 day discount window expires on Mon the 25th. Get your initial representations delivered to the Council on or before the 25th and the Council will re-offer the discount even if they reject. Says so on the PCN. So you have nothing to loose by making representations.

I would simply say that the contravention did not occur. You were not obstructing the lowered footway as will be evident from a close examination of the photos. And send them one or two of your own. The fact that the drops are not at right angles to the pavement.carriageway is not your problem. You were either blocking the drops or you were not. As I see it, your photos show that the car was either not blocking at all or possibly the front bumper slightly overhangs. So a "de minimis" at worst.

See what others have to say and by all means post up a draft.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 17:30
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



QUOTE (Lrihk @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:07) *
I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.





This was the original thread - with adjudication to quote (case 2100010686):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry444549

Let's see a draft in your own words please, no problems if it's not perfected yet!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Sat, 16 Jun 2012 - 11:27
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (Lrihk @ Fri, 15 Jun 2012 - 11:07) *
I still don't understand the wording flaw.. I can't seem to locate it on the front, can you please highlight where this is shown because everything seems to read fine.





This was the original thread - with adjudication to quote (case 2100010686):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry444549

Let's see a draft in your own words please, no problems if it's not perfected yet!


I'll submit my draft tomorrow night, but I still don't understand the flaw in the wording even after reading the thread. Are you able to break it down for me please why the wording is wrong?

Thanks,

*EDIT*

Oh, I get it now, because I challenged it, it means I don't have to pay it since they had bad wording.

Would you advise me including previous cases like the one you listed in my draft appeal letter?

This post has been edited by Lrihk: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 - 11:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 16 Jun 2012 - 17:34
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



Yes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Tue, 19 Jun 2012 - 15:57
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



Right, bit delayed, been busy with work, but here is my draft.....

______________________________________________________________________

To whom this may concern,

On the date 12/06/12, I received a PCN for the contravention charge:

(27) Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

This contravention did not occur. I examined my car straight away and it is parked before the lowered footpath. If you examine the photo attached which I have taken at the time, it is evident that from close examination, my wheels/car is parked before the lowered footpath.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/46/20120612175822.jpg

The fact that the footpath drop is at a angle is not my problem. I did not make it this way. The only problem is me receiving a PCN for a fault contravention on the behalf of the CEO.

Upon further examination of the PCN, I have also noticed there is a error with the wording "..and unless this PCN is challenged".

With research online, I came across a case which the adjudication touches on this particular wording. The case in question is "case 2100010686"

Please see attached images of the adjudication verdict:

http://i47.tinypic.com/5dpba9.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/30mwtib.jpg

If my appeal for the contravention is denied, I will then take it further to the adjudication and raise awareness of this particular wording.

Kind Regards,

xxxxxxx
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 19 Jun 2012 - 23:31
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



Yep, seems simple enough. I feel this one is going to go all the way to adjudication where I feel you would win (hopefully) because otherwise any Council could pretend any car near to a dropped kerb is in contravention if they take a photo at a certain angle!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 19:49
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 00:31) *
Yep, seems simple enough. I feel this one is going to go all the way to adjudication where I feel you would win (hopefully) because otherwise any Council could pretend any car near to a dropped kerb is in contravention if they take a photo at a certain angle!


When you say it's going to go all the way to the adjudication does this mean I have to take a day out of work and go court to appeal?

Thanks, for getting back to me by the way! smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 20:17
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,751
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Member No.: 32,130



You should plan that, yes, because attending a hearing in person has the best outcome usually. But then again lots of Councils drop out just before the hearing when they realise the appellant is serious and has a good case.

When I said 'all the way to adjudication' Isuppose I kind of meant 'as far as adjudication stage' but not necessarily resulting in a hearing if they fold at the eleventh hour. I just can't see them letting go too early.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bama
post Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 21:43
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,931
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Member No.: 4,323



its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bluedart
post Thu, 21 Jun 2012 - 06:09
Post #19


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 5,243
Joined: 9 Jul 2004
From: Devon
Member No.: 1,388



QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 22:43) *
its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table


You forgot to mention - he is also independent.
My arse.


--------------------
Peter
What I'd like to see police/local authorities do is deal with important issues and not these sorts of victimless crimes when society is riddled with problems.

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

'The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.' - Albert Einstein
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lrihk
post Thu, 21 Jun 2012 - 12:59
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 98
Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Member No.: 55,465



QUOTE (Bluedart @ Thu, 21 Jun 2012 - 07:09) *
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 20 Jun 2012 - 22:43) *
its not court - no wigs, no oaths etc
just a couple of people around a table


You forgot to mention - he is also independent.
My arse.


So I will be on my own with no solicitors/advisor? Hmmm, need to be careful with how I word things then if it does go all the way to that room. Fingers crossed it doesn't.

Think I need to be more forceful in my appeal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 23:27
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here