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Any Advice, I am taking this to court!, Speeding ticket.
Mosaka
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 09:47
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Hi All,

Thank you for any advice in advance.

Clean license from day 1. I hired a shortwheel van on Friday 17th of June to take some stuff up with the father in law and his wife to lincolnshire.
30 minutes before desitnation i got pulled up by the police and was to told to switch the engine off and go and sit in the back of their car.

I did this of course and I was then informed as to why i was stopped. the police officer mentioned that I was exceeding 30mph as doing 39-40 mph and there will not be able to give me a slap on the wrist or put me on the speed awareness course, I was shocked first of all the I was stopped and I know 100% that I was not doing that speed but what was i able to do other than recieve this ticket.

I asked do they have any video evidence of me being recorded at the said indicated speed, they then said they have a still image of the number plate and that is all but they have followed me from a roundabout to the traffic light and I went through a school road at 11:30pm in excess of 30mph, whether they have a registered speed on me is unknown.

I then recieved this ticket from the police officer and she said you can sign for this but you do not have to . i read it and then decided to not sign and took this with me.

Other information,

She took my name, address, DOB (did not ask for drivers license) nor did they check anything in the van, nothing (seemed very strange)
I was driving a Hired Van, it was full of household products.
Friday 17th June must of have been the most rain that ever fell
It was night time
New location for me
I have a clean drivers license
Reciept indicates only "excess speed 30" and not the speed they say i was doing (39-40mph)

I have been informed by a number of friends that this sounds like a numbers game and i was just unlucky at the time. My drivers licence has been clean from the beginning, over 10 years.
One friend who is knowledgable (or i beleive us) in this area said to 100% take this to court and appeal against the 3 points and £60 and get them to produce evidence that the car speed gun was calibrated on the day, (written proof has to be evident for this to be acknowledged).

I will be going to court to appeal and fight my corner as I 100% truthfully was not speeding, but does it sound like I have a case to go by or do I just accept the 3 points and £60.

I look forward to your facts/advice?
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post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 09:47
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cabbyman
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 14:45
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It's probably better that contributors try to 'catch you out' and you rehearse these arguments on here rather than have a CPS professional and two police officers confront you in court if you insist on going there. At least you're getting a good grilling to practice with.


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Mosaka
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 14:53
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well if you put it this way, then I apologise.. and did not mean to upset any of the helpers.

You mention two police officers will be against me and that will be enough to make a judge go against me.

I had my father in law and his wife in the Van with me at the time, if this a numbers game. can they not be my witnesses and say that I was doing thirty. or will the judge say that this is ludricous how can passengers be judging my speed or looking the speedometer all the time.

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cabbyman
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 14:58
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You may have hit the nail on the head there. I'm afraid I'm going to join the rising crescendo and advice you to take the FPN. However, it is your decision and I would ask that, if you do decide to go to court, please would you come back here and let us know the result. You could be offered a place in the Pepipoo hall of fame and receive a virtual T shirt.


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jobo
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 15:17
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QUOTE (Mosaka @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 15:53) *
well if you put it this way, then I apologise.. and did not mean to upset any of the helpers.

You mention two police officers will be against me and that will be enough to make a judge go against me.

I had my father in law and his wife in the Van with me at the time, if this a numbers game. can they not be my witnesses and say that I was doing thirty. or will the judge say that this is ludricous how can passengers be judging my speed or looking the speedometer all the time.


you were either speeding or you weren't, a defence that you were but weren't going that fast is still a guilty plea, a defence that you didnt think you were, but arnt really sure, isnt going to stand up against two copper who say you were

to have ANY chance, your going to have to start from a pretext of your certain you wernt and require the prosecution to prove you were, at that point its in the lap of the gods on the credability of you and your witnesses against the credibility of the police, with them having a head start, then the cps might only call one policeman, the one they did call might get acute appendicitis the day before( happened to me) or the court just might beleive you against the weight of evidence presented( also happened to me), but if your going to fight, its only fair to tell you the odds are against you, but yes you do have a chance


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roadrunner 163
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 15:42
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Some police forces do not offer speed awareness courses when stopped at the roadside by officers, only scammer vans and static cameras after NIPs are sent. All the begging and pleading will not get one offered in these situations as the option just does not exist.

I am assuming the car had CCTV from a previous comment about the reg being on the screen which suggest you may have been observed speeding by 2 officers, had it recorded and possibly measured by a VASCAR device.

If the finances are not a big issue to you then you have little to loose by fighting it in court as most likely that you will still only get 3 points on conviction in the mags but if the cash is tight take the FPN. Be very careful about employing a solicitor for such a minor offence as this could become very uneconomical. Going guilty at 31 will see you convicted and 3 points and £60 tends to be the lowest it goes in penalty's and that is seldom from the magistrates.




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Mayhem007
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 17:23
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Two officers in the car stating 39 to 40mph and issuing you with an FPN is a pretty good result, especially when they mention speeding past a school.

If you are correct in your assumption that your speedometer only ever read 33mph then arguably you were most likely on the brink of the limit and on the face of it your defence would be valid. If you were at anytime doing 1mph over the limit then unfortunately you are guilty of the offence. A prosecutor will be able to rip your witnesses part and put them through quite a stressful situation.

Dare say the prosecutor will go on about parallax error and ascertain if the witnesses watched your speedometer constantly as opposed to human nature of glancing at it occassionally.

If you accept the FPN its cost you 60 quid and 3points. Don't accept and then the courts may consider the 39-40MPH in an area where children are most likely to be and then thats when you pay the big bucks and then say why-o-why didn't I listen to the advice on pepipoo.

Your friends are talking absolute rubbish.

However, if you are adamant about pleading not guilty and you believe you are not guilty. Then perhaps further advice can be given when you get to that stage.


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mickR
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 18:28
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just want to pick up on one point
OP says he saw the reg plate on bibs "screen" if this was a non measuring device follow check why would they have the vehicle on screen? could it have been a shot from ANPR?
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 20:14
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 19:28) *
could it have been a shot from ANPR?

That would be my guess.
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TheBeak
post Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 11:55
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Trial costs of around £800 + income related fine + Victim Surcharge + 3 pts is a big gamble on a not very convincing argument.

Accept that your speed may just have drfited over 30mph and you got caught. Unlucky, but it happens. £60 + 3pts.

I know what I would be doing.
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roadrunner 163
post Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 12:53
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QUOTE (TheBeak @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 12:55) *
Trial costs of around £800



where on earth did you get that figure from???
Is this the actual costs or cost applied for by the prosecution?


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Ticking an incorrect box does not make me guilty as one of the other boxes does apply to me. - Your honour.
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ReggieRebel
post Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 13:36
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Friday 17th June must of have been the most rain that ever fell
It was night time
New location for me


Would any of these detract from any case as the Prosecutors are likely to say speed should have been adjusted to take these factors into account?
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sgtdixie
post Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 15:20
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If there is a still photo it will be from an ANPR system. Most of these are linked to Provida/Cleartone etc speed detection meters. There is a better than even chance that the follow is on video which will show the Police car speedometer, GPS speed or a full time & distance check. All opf which I would expect would show excess speed.

If what you say about them being behind you for only 30 seconds, at 40 mph this is 1/3 of a mile which is 50% further than a certified check minimum.

It is likely the 2 BIB's are Traffic so are unlikely to make basic errors in their evidence for a simple speeder. If your passenegrs go to court and lie, (a video is hard to rubbish) the consequences for you will be as many have stated, for your passengers it can be soap on a rope time.

If you saw the Police car behind you for 30 seconds it is likely they were there for longer.

I often used to ask a simple question of someone caught speeding on video,"Do you want your video played to unsympathetic magistrates on a 50" plasma in court?"

After all if you tell a magistrate you saw a Police car behind you and that you were still doing 33mph they are not going to let you off.

My advice, take the £60 & 3 points, it will only get worse.
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TheBeak
post Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 15:53
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QUOTE (roadrunner 163 @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 13:53) *
QUOTE (TheBeak @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 12:55) *
Trial costs of around £800



where on earth did you get that figure from???
Is this the actual costs or cost applied for by the prosecution?


Ballpark figure for a trial in the Magistrate's Court - Costs applied for by the CPS after guilty verdict following not guilty plea and trial.

This post has been edited by TheBeak: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 15:53
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Mosaka
post Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 10:16
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No worries, I think even though I want to take this to court, it shows you guys know a hell of lot more than me and I thank everyone for the advice.

I am just awaiting to hear from a solictor who will come back to me tomorrow latest and I will let you all know the answer of they think I should do.

one thing that I wanted to ask. if i decide to go to court do I you still have:

pay the 60 fine upfront and get it back if it is thrown out
or to pay the fine before 28 days regardless
and also if i pay it does it mean that I am admitting to it.

very confusing this receipt???!!
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mrh3369
post Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 10:21
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You only pay if you are pleading guilty, if you take it to court you dont pay until you are found guilty and then you pay the fine and costs the court imposes and nothing if you are found not guilty.


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Edited as my IPhone thinks it knows best and changes my posts…
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Mayhem007
post Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 10:45
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Your solicitor will advise you that you have good case and then will ask you for £300 when you lose.

Unfortunately he can only sum up the situation on your information and determination to fight the case.

He will not be privy to the prosecutions evidence until you plead not guilty, which then he can give further advice.

As soon as you entered into dialogue with the solicitor you have just increased your costs, whcih could rise exponentially as you go down the rabbit hole.

Our advice, no matter what he says, cut your costs and run.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 11:26
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If the Solicitor is a general one and not a motoring specialist you're wasting your time.

Simon


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CuriousOrange
post Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 12:06
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QUOTE (Mosaka @ Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 11:16) *
if i decide to go to court do I you still have:

pay the 60 fine upfront and get it back if it is thrown out
or to pay the fine before 28 days regardless
and also if i pay it does it mean that I am admitting to it.
If you pay the £60, it means you don't have to go to court at all, even if you wanted to, and you get three points.


If you tell them you want to go to court (you have to tell them, not just do nothing) then you don't pay anything. If you then get found guilty the court will give you a fine (and points), and the fine will be noticeably more.

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fossn
post Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 17:05
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hi
I posted just after this was listed and have read through all the comments since.
to summarise:
the best advice on all the evidence available on this thread is take the points and fine.
BUT
the op wants to fight as an aggrieved party.
Likely result:
Much higher fine + costs + points.
Conclusion
Its hard to accept a stitch up whether perceived or real. However that would be the best course of action. Honest. We've all had to accept such a situation at some time in our lives.
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Gan
post Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 19:11
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I only joined PPP when one of the baby Gans was stitched up.

If even one driver comes out ahead as a result, I've redressed the balance.
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