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Recieved parking ticket when not parked, Threads merged
asherj
post Sun, 19 Sep 2010 - 17:33
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Hi,
Im after some advice as I recieved a PCN from one of those mobile smart car cameras a week ago. This wouldnt be so bad but i wasnt parked at the time, I had pulled forward from parking space to perform a u-turn. As I completed the manoevere i did notice the smart car mainly because the driver had a massive grin on his face when he looked at me but i thought nothing of it at the time.

I waited for a moment to perform the turn and it was at this point he must have taken the picture. Your not allowed to turn out of the bottom of Albion Way so anyone that uses the road has to turn left or perform a uturn to save a long drive through the back roads of lewisham high street.

i've attached the pcn, you can clearly see the passenger window is open but it's impossible to tell that there's anyone in the car or that the car was running etc. Im a concerned that the ticket was issued in this way as I cant see how I can defend myself against this particular PCN as im sure the burden of proof is probably on me.

Any help would be appreciated, as I said I hadnt stopped turned off the car or gotten out, so i cant see how you can say I was parked

Asher

PS, the camera car was parked in a disabled space on the opposite side of the road at the time!
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post Sun, 19 Sep 2010 - 17:33
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clark_kent
post Sun, 19 Sep 2010 - 17:51
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Its a cctv PCN so if you didn't park as claimed it will show that on the film, simple defence no contravention occured.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 19 Sep 2010 - 20:14
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Suggest you require the council to provide you with still photos that in their opinion prove the contravention (as per the PCN). On the face of it the details given so far are insufficient to convey that a contravention has occurred. The PCN accuses the driver of contravening a road traffic order whose effect would have been conveyed through signs at the location, but doesn't give any photos of the sign. Remember, this is a postal PCN and would be sent to the person appearing to be the owner. That person would not necessarily have been the driver and so all necessary info is required to be conveyed in the documentation without the need for any "in situ" knowledge.

On the face of it, the PCN/NTO is deficient and therefore defective which is grounds for appeal under "Alleged contravention did not occur."

Get the photos ASP and post here before sending in your formal reps.

HCA
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asherj
post Sun, 26 Sep 2010 - 22:16
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Thanks for replying to my post, i've taken some pictures of the paring bay and signs, they arent the greatest as there was no where for me to park in so I took them from the car.

Hope they are useful

Asher
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ford poplar
post Sun, 26 Sep 2010 - 22:44
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Ideally you need their CCTV footage to show how long you were stationary and whether any exhaust fumes can be seen whilst stationary. I assume you were stopped in an area reserved for bus parking?
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asherj
post Thu, 30 Sep 2010 - 14:48
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I had stopped for a moment, the only road signs were the ones you saw in the enclosed Jpeg. Im going to write to them and request more pictures/footage, im also going to point out the vague nature of the PCN.

NCP and Lewisham started fleecing drivers last year, it began when they doubled the cost of parking permits out of the blue!

I wont be paying this either way



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J_Edgar
post Thu, 30 Sep 2010 - 21:33
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The PCN says it is made up of two double sided pages, post the rest of it.


--------------------
If it is less than 1 million scovilles it is not hot!!!
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asherj
post Tue, 5 Oct 2010 - 18:40
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QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Thu, 30 Sep 2010 - 22:33) *
The PCN says it is made up of two double sided pages, post the rest of it.


The other three pages are the form that allows you to pay, the other two are How to challenge &MAking representations, do you really need to see them?

I've attached the how to challenge section as your advice could be useful/appreciated here guys

Thanks

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hcandersen
post Tue, 5 Oct 2010 - 19:00
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QUOTE
do you really need to see them?


Yes: life's too short to ask for information we don't need.

You've got until Sunday 10th Oct to submit your representations and you don't have the photos that the council offered to provide FOC to prove its case. In any event, the person considering your reps will not be the CEO who authorised the PCN so another pair of eyes will see what you did if you tell them in your reps which direction to look in.

You weren't waiting, as defined in the relevant Traffic Management Order, you were temporarily stationary while in the process of conducting a traffic manoeuvre. Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

HCA

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 - 19:04
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J_Edgar
post Tue, 5 Oct 2010 - 22:39
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The 2nd page you have posted offers the ground for appeal that a CEO was not prevented from serving the original PCN by afixing it to the vehicle or handing it to the owner...

This ground should only appear on a Reg 10 drive-away PCN, but I suggest you use it as they have offered it to you wink.gif

Post the other 2 pages I need to see the grounds listed on the representations form.


--------------------
If it is less than 1 million scovilles it is not hot!!!
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asherj
post Thu, 7 Oct 2010 - 23:28
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Here you go
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DancingDad
post Fri, 8 Oct 2010 - 13:43
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You really need to get an appeal in today..by fax as sat and sun are non working days and if council want to be iffy, they could claim late challenge.... on postal legal rules if you post today, 1st class it wont arrive till Tuesday...so get it faxed or take it in by hand and get a receipt... If you fax, keep the fax receipt.
Simple and to point is fine..when they reject we can add and embellish for PATAS.

I would state contravention didn't occur.
You were stopped solely during a legitimate manuever.
Their own video evidence (that they have failed to supply to you) will show that.
Cancel the PCN by return or supply all evidence previously requested so you may prepare your appeal to independant adjudicators.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Oct 2010 - 15:54
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GET YOUR REPS SUBMITTED!


HCA
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Scaramouche
post Fri, 8 Oct 2010 - 15:59
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And the next time an expert on this site asks to see the documents, just do it without asking any questions in return, and fast. No apologies for being blunt.


--------------------
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.
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asherj
post Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 20:31
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Ok,
handed my appeal in at the parking shop here in Lewisham, thanks to all those who made pointless comments about the timing, if you had asked I would have said i'm only live around the corner from the buggers!

Anyway, atteched a copy of my brief appeal, the guys in the shopt where kind enough to openly laugh at my letter and condisendingly point out that I was parked in a space designated for buses. I was pleased to see their faces drop when I quickly pointed out that I wasnt parked and was in the car with the engine running. I didnt even mention the U-turn so I'm curious to see what happens.

I'm 99% certain they will reject it anyway as this ruthless Labour borough have really started screwing all of its working constituants of late, the price of everything car & council related has rocketed in the last 12 months, disgusting.

Thanks in advance for pointing out any mistakes errors or things i should have said, very useful at this stage im sure.

Thanks to all those who are constructive and helpful, some of the advice is really good stuff

Asher
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J_Edgar
post Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 20:47
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Well seeing as you have such a wonderful attitude towards the people here that provide their help and advice for free, the best of which you seem to have ignored, good luck with your exceptionally poor appeal.


--------------------
If it is less than 1 million scovilles it is not hot!!!
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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 22:43
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QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 21:47) *
Well seeing as you have such a wonderful attitude towards the people here that provide their help and advice for free, the best of which you seem to have ignored, good luck with your exceptionally poor appeal.


I'm not even too sure that your letter will be construed as an appeal.
It can easily be read as a request for information.
Councils have lost cases before now by issueing a notice of rejection to an info request so clever ones don't.

Personally I'd say it's 50/50 which type of letter is received from council next...NOR or CC

QUOTE
thanks to all those who made pointless comments about the timing.........

My pleasure...the pointless comment I made above will be the last I make as you obviously don't want advise no matter how well meaning

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asherj
post Tue, 23 Nov 2010 - 20:05
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Just a quick one for you guys,

I recieved a pcn in the post last month from Camden council and apon recieving it wrote my own crude request for more information and cctv footage and was surprised to recieve a letter from Camden rejecting my appeal!

I at no stage state that i would like to appeal and was unable to send back the original PCN or forms as I had misplaced them, so my question is what do I say next?

I've already begun to draft a letter informing them of their mistake/assumption but it occurs to me that perhaps there is a technicality I could use to wriggle out of the whole thing due to their eagerness to collect another £60 and deny me a formal appeal.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Asher
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Scaramouche
post Tue, 23 Nov 2010 - 20:09
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Post up everything: PCN, and all correspondence, less personal details to see what can be done. Regards, S.


--------------------
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 23 Nov 2010 - 22:34
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It's a clear procedural Improprietary for a council to issue a document out of time or prescribed order.
They cannot issue a rejection letter with no challenge to consider being sent.
(Which really does cement the oft held view that they don't read em let alone consider them.

But before we go in all guns blazing.... lets see what documents you got. As SCaryMouse says, PCN, Rejection letter and most important, your request. There must be no room for your words to be considered a request.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 - 23:10
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