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Query regarding the Traffic Signs Manual.
Astro
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 11:18
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Hello smile.gif

I am currently appealing a buslane PCN issued by Merton Council. They have rejected my informal appeal so I am considering taking it further.

Part of my initial appeal was based on the fact that there were 3 points in the bus lane where the road markings did not comply with those described in the Traffic Signs Manual and the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

In their response they say:

The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.

Could anyone advise if this is really the case? I thought that if the road markings and/or signage were not as prescribed then that renders the bus lane unenforceable dontknow.gif

Many thanks for any help you can offer.

Liz

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post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 11:18
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dave-o
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 11:20
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I see they haven't mentioned that the TSRGD - probably because that is legislation and not just guidance!


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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Astro
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 11:26
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QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.


Well they did mention it here.....
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dave-o
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 11:32
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Yes, but they only say the manual is guidance.

Your point is good and they are being disengenuous IMO.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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yen_powell
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 14:47
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In the Traffic Signs Manual the word 'must' is used when something is legally required and 'should' when it is good practice. Says it somewhere in the introduction of each chapter I believe.
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Astro
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 18:58
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Thanks for your responses guys.

I have had another look at the Traffic Signs Manual and unfortunately all the relevant sections just say "should" rather than "must" which now leaves me doubting whether or not I would have grounds to appeal or not.

The other grounds for appeal that I had were that I had moved into the bus lane as I believed there to be diesel on the road. I should mention at this point that I was riding a motorbike at the time. From the pictures provided it is clear that I was only in the bus lane for a short distance and that I wasn't delaying any buses by being there. In their response they are disputing that there was no diesel on the road saying none is visible even though they should be aware that diesel is not always visible on a dry road - you can normally smell it before you'll see anything! Diesel is extremely hazardous when on 2 wheels so I was simply taking action that I considered necessary in order to avoid an accident. icon_sad.gif
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DancingDad
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 20:23
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QUOTE (yen_powell @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 15:47) *
In the Traffic Signs Manual the word 'must' is used when something is legally required and 'should' when it is good practice. Says it somewhere in the introduction of each chapter I believe.


IT do
And the bit the council quoted comes from that introduction........A cynical mind would think that they'd delibately missed of the bit about must and should.
I reckon it's always worth quoting the end of TSM Chapt 3, sec 1.1 at them
QUOTE
.................it is for traffic
authorities to determine what signing is necessary
to meet those duties, although failure to follow the
Manual's guidance without good reason might
well lead to enforcement difficulties. In particular,
adjudicators might consider such failure to be
evidence that the signing was unclear. Traffic
authorities should always remember that the purpose
of regulatory signs is to ensure that drivers clearly
understand what restrictions or prohibitions are in
force.


BTW, what is Chapter 5 of TSRGD ????

If you mention the diesel, do it carefully else could be seen as admitting knowingly entering a buslane. It may be ignored by an adjudicator but they maybe bikers themselves and know exactly what you mean.
And cross reference the TSM advise with the TSRGD markings, regs and any directions..you never know.
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nimh999
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 20:40
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QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
the road markings did not comply with those described in the Traffic Signs Manual and the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions.

In their response they say:

The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD.


Better off posting pictures of the lines and signs. The TSRGD is a legal requirement and any deviation makes the "bus lane" not a "bus lane". As for the TSM. If it says guidance then it is guidance and they can ignore if they want.
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clark_kent
post Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 20:44
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QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 19:58) *
The other grounds for appeal that I had were that I had moved into the bus lane as I believed there to be diesel on the road. I should mention at this point that I was riding a motorbike at the time. From the pictures provided it is clear that I was only in the bus lane for a short distance and that I wasn't delaying any buses by being there. In their response they are disputing that there was no diesel on the road saying none is visible even though they should be aware that diesel is not always visible on a dry road - you can normally smell it before you'll see anything! Diesel is extremely hazardous when on 2 wheels so I was simply taking action that I considered necessary in order to avoid an accident. icon_sad.gif



You are correct it is very dangerous to bikers so no doubt you pulled over and reported it to the Police or Local Authority so they will have a record of it.
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Scaramouche
post Fri, 24 Sep 2010 - 23:37
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QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.


Well they did mention it here.....


With respect, there is no "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD"! They are mixing up the Manuals with the Statute. There IS Chapter 5 Traffic Signs Manual, however. With regard to the statute, concentrate on the Directions and Regulations and can we please have everything posted in order to help? Correspondence, signage - roads and poles, warning signs, remnants of diesel, proof of removal of diesel: everything. Pictures and video evidence. TRO. The lot.

Cannot believe their pre-amoeba muppet-speak! Require all paperwork re this location and FOI them when was the last time the author of the said response undertook some training in this regard. Seriously.

And FOI them for all cases which have been appealed at PATAS re this location, all those which have been informally appealed and results of both, and, in the case of the latter, at what stage if successful. Re former, get the case numbers. If they want you to part with your money, make them work for it. They may err on the way. And one final point: edit out name if this is your real name: they do watch!

Try: Bus lanes.com and ticketfighter.co.uk; and Bus priority: the way ahead (DfT) for useful info.

Also this advice from motortorque: How to deal with diesel:

* Firstly, always try to steer around the diesel. If you hit it, keep the bike as upright as possible, maintain a constant throttle and do NOT apply your brakes. If you are cornering, stand the bike up and run a little wider to the other side of the slick.
* Do everything on the bike smoothly, as you would on ice, and you can ride out the other side safely. Remember that there are likely to be more spillages further up the road, so keep a look out.
* If you inform your local council of any spillages, they should get it dealt with.

So, you did the first and claim that you did so in order to avoid an accident.

This post has been edited by Scaramouche: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 07:43


--------------------
The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.
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clark_kent
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 08:35
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QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 00:37) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.


Well they did mention it here.....


With respect, there is no "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD"! They are mixing up the Manuals with the Statute.


I think you are also getting confused they are refering to schedule 5 of the TSRGD.
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strollingplayer
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:12
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QUOTE (nimh999 @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 21:40) *
The TSRGD is a legal requirement and any deviation makes the "bus lane" not a "bus lane".

Not entirely - for the purpose of bus lane PCNs, the definition comes from the Transport Act, which is broader. A piece of road can be a "bus lane" under TA that isn't a "bus lane" according to TSRGD. s.64 RTRA still applies, and the signs must still be either prescribed or authorised.


--------------------
The content of this post, of any replies to it, and of any preceding it, may be soliciting, or be in response to a solitication for advice as to the formulation of a strategy for action in a legal process. This post, any replies and those preceding, should therefore be assumed to be subject to privilege.

Aims of challenging a council PCN

Stroller v local council: 2 accepted, 1 bottled, 1 win, 2 awaiting council's decision.

I reserve the right to be wrong. This applies to any part of this post, including this signature.
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Scaramouche
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:15
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QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:35) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 00:37) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.


Well they did mention it here.....


With respect, there is no "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD"! They are mixing up the Manuals with the Statute.


I think you are also getting confused they are refering to schedule 5 of the TSRGD.


OK. Please direct me to Specsavers in that case. Read what is says: "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD". I do not possess telepathic powers. I am not confused and you are assuming that they are referring to Schedule 5 of the statute.

This post has been edited by Scaramouche: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:24


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The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.
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Scaramouche
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:27
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Aside from these semantic arguments, and to summarise: what are we advising the OP to do in order to get off this, ladies and gentlemen? I mean: sound, pragmatic advice, which addresses the OP's predicament.

This post has been edited by Scaramouche: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:29


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The Patas Monkey has a remarkably high reproductive rate, perhaps as an evolutionary response to the high adult mortality rates associated with this strongly terrestrial lifestyle.
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clark_kent
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 11:16
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QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 10:15) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 09:35) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 00:37) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (Astro @ Wed, 22 Sep 2010 - 12:18) *
The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and Chapter 5 of the TSRGD. Moreover, the introduction section of the Traffic Signs Manual states, "The Traffic Signs manual is intended to give advice to traffic authorities and their agents on the correct use of signs and road markings." The manual is for guidance only and any implementation may be affected by constraints of the road layout and length of bus lane.


Well they did mention it here.....


With respect, there is no "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD"! They are mixing up the Manuals with the Statute.


I think you are also getting confused they are refering to schedule 5 of the TSRGD.


I do not possess telepathic powers.


How in that case do you know they are 'mixing up the manuals with the statute' a chapter is a sub division of a book so a schedule is a chapter of the TSRGD?
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Scaramouche
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 16:33
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The points you make relate to advisory guidance as laid out in the Traffic signs Manual and [color="#ff0000"]Chapter 5 of the TSRGD

Well they did mention it here.....
[/quote]

With respect, there is no "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD"! They are mixing up the Manuals with the Statute.[/quote]


[/quote]

How in that case do you know they are 'mixing up the manuals with the statute' a chapter is a sub division of a book so a schedule is a chapter of the TSRGD?


[/quote]

Because, if you look at the whole context and quote above, it is quite clear to a person with a modicum of intelligence that, not only have they used the wrong nomenclature, they are also wrongly stating that "advisory guidance" is "laid out" in "Chapter 5 of the TSRGD." As TSRGD is a statute, contains no "chapters", verses or hymns even, therefore, they surely mean what I say they mean i.e. if you mean what I think you mean. Still, this would seem to be an unknown unknown as opposed to a known unknown, if you see what I mean. Sorry. Clearly, I need to save up for a lexicon in muppet-speak because another poster had already mentioned this (DD) and I am sorry to have brought it up again, but did not notice at the time. The same author has, I believe, made further valid comments re the guidance.

Anyway, rather than argue to no avail about this, surely it is in the interests of the OP to argue that this explanation is totally invalid and, therefore, would constitute a valid point of submission at adjudication, if this goes that far?

This post has been edited by Scaramouche: Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 16:49


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DancingDad
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 16:41
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I think any arguments on semantics is missing the point that in the NOR Merton have been a bit naughty by refering to Chapter 5 of TSRGD.
While it may be clear to someone with knowledge of the statutes that Schedule 5 (TSRGD) relates to Bus lane signage and therefore they may well accept it as a simple error, the council have included erroneous and misleading information that could lead a lay person to conclude that it is not worth appealing further.
Chapter 5 sounds all official. As does TSRGD.
The assumption (and duty) is that a council is governed by statute, are experts in the laws they are relying on and would not mislead the public by refering them to something that does not exist.
A layperson may not know that TSRGD is an abbreviation for Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Even if they did, they would not find Chapter 5 as the "chapters" are called schedules
While it may be a simple error it could have the same effect as citing The Merton Bus Lane Act 1996. It could lead a person into the belief that legislation exists that they cannot find but must exist (cos the council says so) and therefore they have no case for appeal. This is misleading and if deliberate is Fraud (Telling porkies for gain)

I'd certainly include that sort of argument into any appeal. May not be a winner but shows council are playing fast and loose.
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ford poplar
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 16:59
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IMO forget the Traffic Signs Manual (until Adjudication) any substantive appeal should be based on the requirements (or lack of) of the TSRG&D 2002 which is the definative Statute for road signs, markings and permissable variants not requiring special authorisation.
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Scaramouche
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 17:12
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 17:41) *
I think any arguments on semantics is missing the point that in the NOR Merton have been a bit naughty by refering to Chapter 5 of TSRGD.
While it may be clear to someone with knowledge of the statutes that Schedule 5 (TSRGD) relates to Bus lane signage and therefore they may well accept it as a simple error, the council have included erroneous and misleading information that could lead a lay person to conclude that it is not worth appealing further.
Chapter 5 sounds all official. As does TSRGD.
The assumption (and duty) is that a council is governed by statute, are experts in the laws they are relying on and would not mislead the public by refering them to something that does not exist.
A layperson may not know that TSRGD is an abbreviation for Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Even if they did, they would not find Chapter 5 as the "chapters" are called schedules
While it may be a simple error it could have the same effect as citing The Merton Bus Lane Act 1996. It could lead a person into the belief that legislation exists that they cannot find but must exist (cos the council says so) and therefore they have no case for appeal. This is misleading and if deliberate is Fraud (Telling porkies for gain)

I'd certainly include that sort of argument into any appeal. May not be a winner but shows council are playing fast and loose.


Agreed, in principle. As I attempted to imply in my last post, which may have crossed yours, this apparent error could, if argued in terms of the correct tactics and knowledge of the procedures, well prove to be a constituent of procedural impropriety. IMO, and having digested your views, it already does so.

We do really need to see some documentation etc. and fast in order to help.


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Astro
post Sat, 25 Sep 2010 - 20:42
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I really appreciate all the comments and advice received so far.

Sorry I have been really busy today and not had time to post up any more details - I shall endeavour to do so tomorrow.

A couple of quick points though:

The reply I have had from Merton was in response to my informal representation and is not therefore the Notice of Rejection. I still have the chance to send in my formal representation once I have received the Enforcement Notice from them.

The other thing is that I abbreviated the TRSGD in my original post - in the letter to me they had written it out in full - although funnily enough, looking at the letter again I see that they have actually referred to it as the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Regulations huh.gif


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