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Car towed from parking bay in Lambeth, Car towed outside of penalty hours in Lambeth
ronnyboy1977
post Tue, 1 Sep 2009 - 20:40
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Hi,

I am new here so forgive me if I have posted wrongly but was wondering if anybody could help. My car was towed by Laqmbeth council this evening from Wandsworth Road where it was in a parking bay on the main road. The parking sign said residents permit or pay at machine between 10am and 4pm although there were many signs for different reasons and it was a touch confusing.

The PCN says car observed at from 17:39 and nothing in the "To" field.

When I collected my car the Authorisation for Removal said time of 17:59 but my receipt had no time of removal on it.

I am trying to upload photos of everything I have received so will have those up asap but had a couple of quick questions:

Is the 30 minutes needed to wait before removal the time from observed ending to the time authorised for removal?

Is giving me a receipt without a time removed an error on their part?

Is the fact that the PCN has no "observed to" time an error?

Finally, how do I get the photos and removal time etc. from Lambeth council?

Thanks very much in advance and please bear with me for the photos!


It is also worth noting that I was parking OUTSIDE of the enforcement time on the parking sign but the parking sign was under a bunch of other signs relating to yellow lines, loading etc, although I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay - confusing to say the least
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post Tue, 1 Sep 2009 - 20:40
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clark_kent
post Tue, 1 Sep 2009 - 20:49
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Tue, 1 Sep 2009 - 21:40) *
Hi,

I am new here so forgive me if I have posted wrongly but was wondering if anybody could help. My car was towed by Laqmbeth council this evening from Wandsworth Road where it was in a parking bay on the main road. The parking sign said residents permit or pay at machine between 10am and 4pm although there were many signs for different reasons and it was a touch confusing.

The PCN says car observed at from 17:39 and nothing in the "To" field.

When I collected my car the Authorisation for Removal said time of 17:59 but my receipt had no time of removal on it.

I am trying to upload photos of everything I have received so will have those up asap but had a couple of quick questions:

Is the 30 minutes needed to wait before removal the time from observed ending to the time authorised for removal?

Is giving me a receipt without a time removed an error on their part?

Is the fact that the PCN has no "observed to" time an error?

Finally, how do I get the photos and removal time etc. from Lambeth council?

Thanks very much in advance and please bear with me for the photos!


It is also worth noting that I was parking OUTSIDE of the enforcement time on the parking sign but the parking sign was under a bunch of other signs relating to yellow lines, loading etc, although I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay - confusing to say the least


The 'bunch of other signs' didn't happen to say no parking 4-7pm by any chance?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 06:35
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I suspect this is another of Lambeths belived to be illegal signs where it says no parking except for resdients OR P&D 10-4, its not a legal derivative and very confusing, its MEANT to portray that only residents may park there outside the P&D time, but it fails, and isn't shown as a legal sign derivative.

Simon


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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 06:41
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From memory there was a yellow sign which I believe relates to the yellow line which was the usual no parking 7-7 and then another one for loading saying no loading 7-10 and 4-7 or something like that.

My point though is that I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay and therefore the parking regulations should apply, no?

If that isn;t the case then why have confusing signs? If there is no parking 7-7 due to the yellow sign then surely the 10-4 is redundant as you wil pay to park between 10 and 4 but the council can claim a sign says no parking at all 7-7....

I am interested to know the legal view on this. For what it's worth, the ticket machine I parked right next to said "see parking sign for hours of use" and I have a photo which I am uploading (but still struggling)
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dave-o
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 08:52
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It would be best if you show us pictures of the ticket, the signs and the bay markings.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:03
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Here is my attempt at the pictures - sorry there are loads but I read a lot of posts saying to put everything - hope it works!





















Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

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dave-o
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:04
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We need the PCN and appeals docs.

Need to see the date and time on the receipt.

Pics of the bay would be good.

This post has been edited by dave-o: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:06


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:06
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these didn't work the first time
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Matts Dad
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:11
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What other road signs were there?
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clark_kent
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:14
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 07:41) *
From memory there was a yellow sign which I believe relates to the yellow line which was the usual no parking 7-7 and then another one for loading saying no loading 7-10 and 4-7 or something like that.

My point though is that I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay and therefore the parking regulations should apply, no?

If that isn;t the case then why have confusing signs? If there is no parking 7-7 due to the yellow sign then surely the 10-4 is redundant as you wil pay to park between 10 and 4 but the council can claim a sign says no parking at all 7-7....

I am interested to know the legal view on this. For what it's worth, the ticket machine I parked right next to said "see parking sign for hours of use" and I have a photo which I am uploading (but still struggling)


The no waiting/parking times should match the no loading times if not the signage is invalid, some parts of Wandsworth rd are only 7-7 on saturdays so a photo of the yellow sign is needed which for some reason you have decided not to do? The white plate is a permitted parking sign which states time parking is permitted it does not mean its free/unrestricted outside those hours.

This post has been edited by clark_kent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:15
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:16
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Date on the recipt (I assume you mean the yellow one) is 01/01/09 and time was 20:19 but this was when I picked the vehicle up - they have so far not told me the removal time - anyway, here you go



Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting
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dave-o
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:19
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A few thoughts:

1) We haven't seen anything yet that refers to parking at the time you were ticketed. Are there other signs? Yellow line/s through the bay?

2) Only 20 minutes between ticketing and authorisation. It's not quite clear whether they have to leave 30 minutes before authorising or before removal. However, your receipt does not say when it was actually removed. Therefore, with any appeal i would request CEO notes so we can find out exactly what happened when.

3) This could hinge on these loading restrictions. None of the signs mention loading restrictions. We really need to see any other signs, and also all the road markings; i.e. bays, yellow lines, kerb blips.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:22
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The reason I didn't take photos of the other signs is I genuinely thought they didn't apply - otherwise I would not have parked there as I can tell the time, I know how Lambeth will remove anything they think they can and honestly believed in a parking bay, the sign with the great big blue and white "P" was the sign that applied. I can go back and take photos of the rest of the signs if that helps but please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

My main questions are just, how long they had to wait and did wait, and whether if I go to the independent adjudicator they will agree with me that 3 signs for one area isconfusing enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.

For what it's worth, this must have been the 10th time I have parked in this bay at the same time of day and not ONCE have I even had a PCN....

Thanks Dave-O - I will try to go back tonight to take all those. There was a yeallow line in the bay which runs the whole length of the road but as I said, I thought the dotted parking bay "overruled" those.

Will also get CEO notes - do you know the best way to do so and how long that takes?
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clark_kent
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:27
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:21) *
The reason I didn't take photos of the other signs is I genuinely thought they didn't apply - otherwise I would not have parked there as I can tell the time, I know how Lambeth will remove anything they think they can and honestly believed in a parking bay, the sign with the great big blue and white "P" was the sign that applied. I can go back and take photos of the rest of the signs if that helps but please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

My main questions are just, how long they had to wait and did wait, and whether if I go to the independent adjudicator they will agree with me that 3 signs for one area isconfusing enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.

For what it's worth, this must have been the 10th time I have parked in this bay at the same time of day and not ONCE have I even had a PCN....


The sign only applies at the time on the sign, if it says p&d 10-4 then its a pay and display 10-4 outside those hours it can be anything it likes as long as there is signage to state the fact there was as you pointed out a yellow line and a yellow sign saying no parking the fact that you for what ever reason decided to only take notice of the one sign. however if the signage does state no parking 7-7 and not 4-7 the sign is invalid.
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:30
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Pretty sure it said 7-7 but will go and have a look tonight hopefully and post photos - if either of the signs say 7-7 is the whole PCN invalid due to the signs?
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dave-o
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:31
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:22) *
please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

That's not the case at all. Even if you were parked "illegally" (actually "in contravention" - this is decriminalised parking) i would still be more than happy to help, as towing, and the price levied, is way out of proportion.
But the reason we are asking for this info is to see what routes of appeal you have.

QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:22) *
Will also get CEO notes - do you know the best way to do so and how long that takes?


You will request this with your formal appeal. It should be included with their reply.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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clark_kent
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:36
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:30) *
Pretty sure it said 7-7 but will go and have a look tonight hopefully and post photos - if either of the signs say 7-7 is the whole PCN invalid due to the signs?



If it says no parking 7-7 and pay and display it has two different restrictions that conlict at the same time so you would have grounds for appeal. Where in the road was it we can look on google street view its a long road!
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 09:58
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Google maps seem to have taken the photo a while back and there is only the normal parking sign there - will go along later and photo what is there now

As for CEO notes, I was under the impression not to appeal yet - should I appeal and get the CEO notes?
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ronnyboy1977
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:20
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Having just called them it gets even worse:

Apparently there are 3 PCNs on the vehicle. One at 17:35 (which I never got), one at 17:39 (which I got and caused the towing) and one at 18:29 on Bromell's Road in Clapham at 18:29 1.5 miles away and AFTER the towing! I also didn't get this PCN either.

Seems the CEO was a bit of a fool and/or dodgy but is there a chance he issued 3 PCNs to justify removing the vehicle before 30 minutes had elapsed?
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clark_kent
post Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:25
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QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 11:20) *
Having just called them it gets even worse:

Apparently there are 3 PCNs on the vehicle. One at 17:35 (which I never got), one at 17:39 (which I got and caused the towing) and one at 18:29 on Bromell's Road in Clapham at 18:29 1.5 miles away and AFTER the towing! I also didn't get this PCN either.

Seems the CEO was a bit of a fool and/or dodgy but is there a chance he issued 3 PCNs to justify removing the vehicle before 30 minutes had elapsed?



Surely its got better! If its actually true rather than a cock up by the person on the phone I can see the PCNs all getting cancelled. The first one may possibly have been removed but if you got a PCN whilst car was in the pound you have the Council over a barrel. Don't give the Council a chance to cover their backsides request copies of ALL the PCNs and then post them here, don't mention the discrepency until you have the PCNs in case any get 'forgotten about'.

This post has been edited by clark_kent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:27
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