Slough bus lane PCN rejected but could I win on appeal?, Bus Lane PCN |
Slough bus lane PCN rejected but could I win on appeal?, Bus Lane PCN |
Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 15:38
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
Notice of Rejection arrived recently (via email only and after a month and a half).
My challenge was on the grounds of being forced into the bus lane as I came off the roundabout by aggressive tailgating driver right behind me. I spotted velji's success with his Slough Bus lane PCN back in July/August. His grounds for representation were that the PCN was noncompliant with regulations because information required by law was not on the PCN so the PCN could not be enforced. Slough Bus Lane PCNs are defective I checked my Slough Bus Lane PCN and heyho! it omits the same information that is required to be on the PCN under the Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005. I will now have to go to appeal if I choose to fight on. Can I use this defence as the basis of my appeal? (I used a different argument for the challenge which they of course twisted around in their rejection). It looks straightforward to me if the PCN is defective. Just wanting to know if it's ok to change tack here (I didn't know about it at the time of my challenge). Any advice on this is appreciated. Thank you. |
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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 15:38
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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 16:12
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Post the PCN ALL of it except personal details
Post the representations Post the rejection post the video Then we can offer advice -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 6 Nov 2019 - 16:22
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:17
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
Thanks PASTMYBEST and Stamfordman for offering to help with my Bus Lane PCN
First with the PCN: other side second page other side Challenge/representation was done online through the council website link to the parking office portal Slough PCN portal filled in online form with personal data and box to paste in representation. Evidence video -Yes Neil B - complete and short at only 7 secs. If another camera on the corner could show 1-2 secs earlier than the start here, the tailgater would have been captured right behind me. Slough Bus Lane PCN Notice of Rejection (NOR 5 pages) Thanks for the advice on posting this lot. Feels like quite a fight already, but then my car isn't worth too much more than the fine..... This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:31 |
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 01:39
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,268 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
Is that the whole video?
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 07:48
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Is that the whole video? I don't know why you redacted dates. they are very important reinstate them. From a quick look you have a couple of technical arguments is all -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:17
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
There is a known flaw on the Slough bus lane PCN template, but it would be better if you just told us where this is. Reinstate the dates as well.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 20:56
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 151 Joined: 9 May 2019 From: North of somewhere Member No.: 103,782 |
-------------------- "Stupid is as stupid does" - Forrest Gump
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Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 21:03
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
Evidence video - complete and short at only 7 secs. If another camera on the corner could show 1-2 secs earlier than the start here, the tailgater would have been captured right behind me.
The PCN should have included the mandatory 8(5) (n) (i) so i could go there in person and see their source video.... Slough Bus Lane PCN Acknowledgement of online challenge/representation posted 22 Sept with confusing timelines. Challenge 10 days, representation longer. Online process does not distinguish between these. What I did was the first attempt. As link I'd posted at start of this thread identifies flawed Slough Bus Lane PCN template says: It occurred to me that an appeal on this basis may work for me as the Bus Lane PCN template is the same here as the one in with successful representation in July 2019. Required by law to state this text. Absent from my Bus Lane PCN so is also noncompliant with the legislation regarding bus lane PCNs. This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 23:37 |
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Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:20
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
Bang on mummyof3. From that view looks like I was shunted across the dotted line not the solid white... Must happen a lot just here. They must be coining it... Is that the whole video? I don't know why you redacted dates. they are very important reinstate them. From a quick look you have a couple of technical arguments is all I've changed the pics hopefully as requested. I got a bit paranoid thinking Slough parking office were sneaking around here after hours bonuses an all.... There is a known flaw on the Slough bus lane PCN template, but it would be better if you just told us where this is. Reinstate the dates as well. Wellington Street heading East off sprawling roundabout. Dates now shown. 9 Sept recorded. 29 Oct NOR. Is that the whole video? Sadly yes. The critical bit (tailgating) happened just before the start of what their camera shows. This post has been edited by HiHoSilver: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 00:08 |
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Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 17:59
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You should just be aware that the ground quoted is not infallible, although it should not happen some adjudicators could rule the PCN is substantially compliant. I'm not saying you shouldn't appeal, but I don't want you to think it's risk-free either.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 01:31
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
You should just be aware that the ground quoted is not infallible, although it should not happen some adjudicators could rule the PCN is substantially compliant. I'm not saying you shouldn't appeal, but I don't want you to think it's risk-free either. Thanks cp8759. I'll probably go with the flawed template defence as you outlined here in another case. Interestingly, whilst wading through other stuff about bus lanes online I took a closer look at the location on Wellington street outside Sainsbury's. The bus lane sign (advance indicator) is positioned way too close to the start of the bus lane. This is against regulations. On appeal can I use a multi-pronged defence? I could use flawed template-non-compliant signage and avoid accident exemption. |
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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 02:01
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
The UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 includes bus lanes in great detail. It is not encompassed by the recent TSGR 2016 (according to the explanatory memorandum no 362 (part 4 Legislative context).
Here it says where the Bus Lane advance notice should be placed. Since Wellington Street is a dual carriageway with a 50 mph limit. The required position of the sign is at least 35m from the bus lane lead-in taper. regulations on bus lane advance notice position Here's how close it actually is - less than 10m.... |
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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 07:45
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, just so that you know, it's not even a defence to move over for an emergency services vehicle e.g. police, ambulance etc, therefore 'tailgating' would not be successful.
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Sun, 10 Nov 2019 - 17:43
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The UK Traffic Signs Manual - Chapter 3 Regulatory Signs. 2008 includes bus lanes in great detail. It is not encompassed by the recent TSGR 2016 (according to the explanatory memorandum no 362 (part 4 Legislative context). If you want to quote the TSM, I would suggest you use the 2019 edition https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ic-signs-manual -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 00:42
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
OP, just so that you know, it's not even a defence to move over for an emergency services vehicle e.g. police, ambulance etc, therefore 'tailgating' would not be successful. Thanks for the heads-up on that. I used the term here to indicate the scenario not to be exact. What happened was a little more complicated and I haven't made a tailgating case in my representation. The aggressive driver was almost at right rear bumper collision in a failed bid to overtake at first pass but succeeded in making me veer left into lead-in taper (NOT crossing thick white line). Here's a sketch of the situation. and here's how TFL (the model for bus lane enforcement) make their decisions, all laid out in a nice little decision tree: Slough office did not try to contact me for the 'evidence should be sought where possible' Had they done so I would have suggested we look at the video in the office and agree it is inadequate to make a clear decision. That in turn raises three points. The flawed PCN bus lane template frustrates this ever happening since it has been denied me. and is my right by law. Second point. Article 2 of The Bus Lanes (Approved Devices) (England) Order 2005 states (paraphrased for straight talking): The available video should enable information to be provided about any circumstances which may have caused the vehicle to be in the bus lane or the selected area (that would include the lead-in taper area upstream of the actual evidence video offered for view) Third point. Since the NOR admits there was an operator, it also points to the frustration of my rights denied by the flawed PCN template. I wanna see any and all videos as is my right to do so at their office in person (explanation of the regulations below): The NOR states The contravention was noted by the camera operator who was observing real time images relayed from a fixed CCTV camera. Article 2 states: 3. The equipment includes a recording system in which— (e) where any part of the equipment is controlled manually, two simultaneous recordings are made of the camera output viewed by the operator. So yes, let me see the duplicate video RECORDINGS (I guess the existence of two to ensure inadvertent changes or god forbid - tampering) The NOR states "The contravention was noted by the camera operator who was observing real time images relayed from a fixed CCTV camera. Video footage was recorded of the contravention taking place. Should you wish to view this footage please go to the following website https://3sc.slough.parkinguk.org/. - absolutely hilarious pointing me to nothing new only the video I've just discussed with them in detail in my representation which they are NORing (dog chasing tail video loop starts playing in my head) One more before I go - Slough BC do not have any of their own Bus Lane TROs. Reading has 10. As such the regulatory framework for Slough Bus lanes is more straightforward. I can for sure give up my original grounds for representation and go for another on appeal. The flawed PCN probably best. The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005 14 (3) (e) says I can include any and all grounds anew as I see fit. |
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Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 10:58
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I agree the camera does not meet the certification criteria, but to be successful this argument needs to be persuasively phrased. For now I suggest you follow our standard approach and register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow". Once this is done, the council has a 7 day deadline to supply copies of the PCN, the representations and the Notice of Rejection to the tribunal, most councils miss the deadline and that gives you an additional ground of appeal.
In the meantime post up a draft of your appeal for review, don't rush as once you register the appeal the tribunal will give you at least 21 days before you have to submit your full appeal wording. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 13:14
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
I agree the camera does not meet the certification criteria, but to be successful this argument needs to be persuasively phrased. For now I suggest you follow our standard approach and register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow". Once this is done, the council has a 7 day deadline to supply copies of the PCN, the representations and the Notice of Rejection to the tribunal, most councils miss the deadline and that gives you an additional ground of appeal. In the meantime post up a draft of your appeal for review, don't rush as once you register the appeal the tribunal will give you at least 21 days before you have to submit your full appeal wording. Thanks once again cp8759 for the suggestion I follow the forum's standard approach on appeals. Is this approach outlined here somewhere? I just tried to find it but haven't yet. Perhaps it's in the Supporters area but I can't view those files just now because I'm not a registered supporter. |
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Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 18:57
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow" in the further information box, details of how to appeal are explained in the rejection letter and on the tribunal website. There's nothing else to it so I haven't written a guide.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 14:05
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 5 Apr 2019 From: Slough Member No.: 103,285 |
I agree the camera does not meet the certification criteria, but to be successful this argument needs to be persuasively phrased. For now I suggest you follow our standard approach and register the appeal on the tribunal website by just stating "full submissions to follow". Once this is done, the council has a 7 day deadline to supply copies of the PCN, the representations and the Notice of Rejection to the tribunal, most councils miss the deadline and that gives you an additional ground of appeal. In the meantime post up a draft of your appeal for review, don't rush as once you register the appeal the tribunal will give you at least 21 days before you have to submit your full appeal wording. OK registered yesterday. Drafting now. I calculate date of NOR+2 means I have until 28 Nov to finalise but should do well before then. Also need to decide on multi-grounds or not. Is less more? or more more? (or more less?) kind of decision. Argument will likely run. (Soapbox mode on): Exemption based on avoiding a collision in lead-in taper area. NOR acknowledges avoidance of accident but 'must stay in lane' denies the exemption rule provided for 'forced into bus lane' allowed on the PCN. NOR then alleges that I crossed the thick white line. No evidence in video because I did not. NOR states manual operator noted contravention in real time CCTV with invitation to view suggesting new video evidence. Video evidence is and remains the only one detailed in my representation and side-stepped in the NOR which invites me to go online to view which turns out to be the one I've already discussed at length in my representation they chose to ignore yet now effectively dismiss in issuing a NOR. This standpoint could be considered in contravention of how a NOR should be reached. The wording of NOR shows being treated unfairly and without proper consideration. Manual operator rules state videos in duplicate. Law states video should 'be capable' of showing how ended up in bus lane. Nature of PCN template flaw would have allowed me to exercise my right to view original video evidence that must be 'capable of' showing how I got in the bus lane. Video evidence falls short only showing the aftermath of events leading to the alleged contravention. PCN Omission of rights renders PCN unlawful under ''PCN exceeded amount applicable in the circumstances of the case'. Non-compliant signage, advance notice sign 958 being too close to the lead-in taper being a contributing factor to the collision narrowly avoided in this area and supposed to be a 'camera capable' area and in which publicly available data show collisions have occurred. Soapbox mode off. As I understand it the council should upload the TRO governing the bus lane at this location. I could then build on my suspicions about: taper position right at uxbridge-wellington junction set-back required. No deflection arrow. Since bus and cycle lane width issue. Note for readers of my original representation in case it helps any. I describe reasons to avoid a collision TWICE. The first was 'actual avoidance' AND the second was 'predicted avoidance' The actual avoidance occurred in the bus line lead-in area (before and close to the diagonal dashed line) The second is a prediction had I stayed in lane cp8759, the 7 days you mention 'Once this is done' I think you mean 7 days from registering even though I haven't submitted any argument yet. I got this message about 14 days for council to respond : QUOTE Your appeal has been registered and the authority has confirmed the details.What happens next? They will now decide whether to contest your appeal. How long will this take? We have asked them to do this within 14 days. QUOTE |
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