PCN for parking in a suspended bay or space |
PCN for parking in a suspended bay or space |
Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
I received a PCN for parking in a suspended bay. I didn't actually know it was suspended as I drove into it from the 'wrong' side of the road. By the look of the images on the TFL website, there is sign on a post next to the car, however I can't tell what it says. From what i've read, it's down to TFL or whoever to make sure that the sign can easily be seen, however it was only displayed on one side and I had no idea it was even there. Do I have a case?
And just to add, the date on the pic is 13/9/19, and the date on the notice is 18/10/19 if that makes any difference. [attachment=67465:pcn.jpg] This post has been edited by Jebus: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:10 |
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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:17
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Is the PCN for speeding or some other criminal offence?
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 17:25
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
Contravention 21: Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 22:35
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#4
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP ---did you get a photo of the sign because AFAIA TfL does not have an approved sign via DfT.
Mick |
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:34
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
So, your car is right beside the sign, yet you say you didn't see it. I think this will be a tough persuade job at the adjudicators !
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:40
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#6
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP----post up the whole PCN without your address and vehicle registration. If the dates are awry that could be a possible solution. They have 28 days to serve a PCN from the contravention date.
Are you the owner of the vehicle? Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:42 |
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 12:43
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:23
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
OP ---did you get a photo of the sign because AFAIA TfL does not have an approved sign via DfT. Mick No I didn't because I didn't know it was there lol. The only thing which may be the sign is the one in the pic, which isn't really legible. So, your car is right beside the sign, yet you say you didn't see it. I think this will be a tough persuade job at the adjudicators ! Yeah sounds ridiculous, but I wasn't exactly looking out for a random sign that was backwards, in a place where I park all the time... OP----post up the whole PCN without your address and vehicle registration. If the dates are awry that could be a possible solution. They have 28 days to serve a PCN from the contravention date. Are you the owner of the vehicle? Mick Will do. No i'm not the owner. The car's owned by a leasing company. TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations. What exactly does this mean? [attachment=67474:pcn_2.jpg] This post has been edited by Jebus: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 19:18 |
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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:18
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations. What exactly does this mean? All signs must either be authorised by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, or there must be a special authorisation issued by the Secretary of State for transport. There is no parking suspension sign in the national regulations, so most councils have obtained a special authorisation, see the list here https://dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?...king+suspension TFL has never obtained an authorisation for a parking suspension sign, so the sign is illegal. It is also an unlawful obstruction of the highway. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:23
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
So the contravention occurred on 13/09, and the date of the notice is 18/10. Which makes it 35 days. Can I 100% get off on that technicality?
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:55
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
TFL have no authorised sign, and the sign does not substantively comply with anything found in the regulations. What exactly does this mean? All signs must either be authorised by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, or there must be a special authorisation issued by the Secretary of State for transport. There is no parking suspension sign in the national regulations, so most councils have obtained a special authorisation, see the list here https://dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/index.php?...king+suspension TFL has never obtained an authorisation for a parking suspension sign, so the sign is illegal. It is also an unlawful obstruction of the highway. I tried the link. It requires a password... However, I did find this link: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3866.pdf Is it the same? From this link: https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/parking/c...ention-code-21/ "The actual signs used for parking suspensions are usually designed by the council that is enforcing. This is because the Department of Transport do not have standard approved signs that can be used lawfully. So local councils must obtain approval for their own suspension signs from the Department of Transport before they can legally enforce." So is that saying the council need approval of their own sign from the DofT, and then the council can enforce? But my letter is from TFL. Im confused. |
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:14
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Out of date and irrelevant because it's not a LB Croydon road.
And why wouldn't Item 22 in the Part 6 sign table apply? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/13/made |
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:12
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
Out of date and irrelevant because it's not a LB Croydon road. And why wouldn't Item 22 in the Part 6 sign table apply? http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/13/made How do you figure it's not a LB Croydon road? I don't know what you're getting at by item 22. Please explain. |
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:17
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Its a TFL road, it is likely that the PCN originally went to the lease co who named you so it was reissued in your name the item 22 is a sign authorised for use when waiting and loading is temporarily suspended
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:31
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
I had no idea that such a thing existed. Can you explain the difference between a TFL road and a non-TFL road?
As you said, item 22 is for waiting and loading, not parking. But I still don't know what point it is you're trying to make. |
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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 23:22
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
22
Diagram 640.1 Waiting, loading and unloading prohibited at a parking place where parking is temporarily suspended So this would appear to deal with your second point. As regards your first: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes Just because a road is in borough X does not make it their road. Essentially you have private streets, borough roads, TfL roads and Secretary of State (trunk) roads. |
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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 09:05
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#17
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
@hca
C'mon! We've been through this before. If the sign you propose was sufficient then there would be no requirement for authorities to seek DfT approval for a suspension sign and yet they do even after the TSRGDs 2016 came into force. It is an obligation which they cannot escape. I believe Edward Houghton suggested that sign would suffice on its own but rapidly backtracked. The sign is used for meter cowls when a suspension is in force. Mick This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 09:06 |
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Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 13:57
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thee DfT has authorised 17 more suspension sings since the TSRGD 2016 came into force, so there's no real basis to suggest the TSRGD authorisation is sufficient.
There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 18:49
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 12 May 2014 Member No.: 70,599 |
There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event. Now that's interesting. I will do this. What are my other options in regards to contesting the pcn? I would appreciate it if someone could give me clear and concise info in laymans terms. Thanks. |
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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:42
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
There's also the fact that the suspension sign is not actually visible in the photo, so I would call TFL and ask for the video. They will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the posts. If the sign isn't readable in the video, there's no prima facie evidence of a contravention in any event. Now that's interesting. I will do this. What are my other options in regards to contesting the pcn? I would appreciate it if someone could give me clear and concise info in laymans terms. Thanks. In a nutshell your grounds are: 1) There is no evidence of what the details of the suspension are unless these are clearly visible in the video. For all we know, the suspension was not in force when you stopped 2) The sign TFL is relying on is illegal in any case because it's not authorised. For now just get the video, we'll help you draft the representations. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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