hello volunteers,

i know this forum is about motorists and not about school attendance, but i do not have money to hire solicitors and this is criminal court i am being taken to. i have few queries in case someone can answer for me please?

1. if i request for school headteacher as witness will it be a good request - as case rests on him. he did not authorise my exceptional leave request. i have been told i may be asked to pay for his time.

2. can i represent myself or a solicitor is a must in criminal court? i do not have money to pay to solicitor.

3. any solicitor who can help me for free or nominal charge?

4. i am unable to find information on how government expects attendance percentage calculation? council is only using the period around absence which will be low. if they take only period of absence the percentage will infact be zero.

5. should authorised absences and illnesses also go in calculations for attendance percentage?

6. i have gone through council prosecution - it has wrong facts, wrong dates and portraying me as a regular casual offender using wrong data and wrong interpretation of my exceptional leave request

7. council is showing around 10+ letters that they sent me penalty notice and warnings and reminders about court case. i never got anything until last thursday this court summons for june so v little time is left for me to react and prepare defence and take advice and do research.

8. how can all get lost in post over 6 months period so i suspect they secretly filed court action and created letters but never posted them.

9. and school is counting one absence in prosection which happened before 6 months - i believe they cannot initiate prosecution after 6 months have passed.

i called few organisations but most deal with means based help and not about attendance anyway.

i will be grateful for advice.

Which is what I said about six weeks ago in my first post (#21).

I still believe that and would be very surprised, despite the OP's protestations to the contrary, if this was not the last resort rather than the first.

Indeed, by the OP's own admission, they have refused to pay FPN's as they felt they was unfairly issued. They have had the opportunity to avoid a criminal record.

Thanks peodude...
My son is in highly academic UK's top ranking grammar school so in year 10 his assessments started for gcse as well as a levels. So he can never again go with me even in term breaks as he cannot find more than 2-3 nights time for holiday. He wanted to meet his grandparents otherwuse upto next august it would be 20 months.

So i had told school when applying for last oct leave that this is my final leave of any of my children.
My passport shows i have not gone again to my parents and booked for this summer already before getting summons.
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My parents r elderly and age related illnesses continue to impact their fitness to travel for long hours, they are quite reluctant to come due to 24 hours door to door journey including 5-6 hours road and 8-9 hours air... requiring hardships and avoid coming during winters. They come sometimes during either spring or summer but i cannot rely on them agreeing on coming here sometime in future. They had not visited me after august 2017. Who knows how long they can live or be fit to take long journeys. October 2018 was particularly imp for me as it was my last chance if i were to go with my children.
I could not go in august 2018 due to daughter exams in september and had to go in october to cause least disruption to my son's gcse whilst he met his grandparents briefly in october term break. So i m keeping children welfare and education as top priority. And they learn a lot on these trips too that conplement british school education. And we take homework with us.
My only point is that migrant parents are disadvantaged community due to most having parents abroad and no relatives in uk. So need some protection from law. Of course those who r settled here are here by choice and can always move back. but if they were to move back to their native country then their children's education is likely to get more impacted.
Why would a devoted parent endure torturous journey during term time unless it is in exceptional ie unusual circumstances.


For april 2018 5 days for 50th anniversary of parents, yes they *sent me penalty notice but no warning before that at all although they claim they sent me warning letter. But for october 2018, although council has attached 12 letters between my and my spouse but only 3 for april were received. No letter from school or council received about penalty notice and court warnings. So all i knew after my absence of october 2018 was court summons in may 2019. Nothing else. Although council is showing 9 extra letters for october which i am confident were never posted. All letters about an absence cannot get lost


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And yes i do not want to pay fine. I do not think i committed offence as my circumstances r exceptional. This is the dispute. School and council do not listen. Cannot authorise. Full stop. Then start penalty notice route. october was my last leave request of my life to a school. I told school in september itself.
But ofcourse i will have no choice but to pay huge costs if court asks me to.
I explained a lot to council and mp and councillor and school governer. But none wants to help this time. For april absence mp and senior council staff and councillor indirectly helped me and that was thought to have been resolved. But when i had to go in october council joined both absences and sent me to court. They r not willing to not charge me of offence. Penalty notice is also charging for offence but one can avoid criminal record.

This post has been edited by chawal2: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 12:46

Hardly surprising, is it? They helped you with the previous penalties, but you still went ahead and did it again in full knowledge that you were breaking the law. This is only likely to end one way.

Sorry, but that reasoning really doesnt hold up.

YOu said earlier that you could not go away solo because your wife could not look after your 9 year old daughter. Yet you have failed to adeuately explain why this inability was *unavoidable* such that it would be *unavoidable* tha tyour daughter would accompany you

You could not go away in AUGUST because of exams in SEPTEMBER? For your 9 year old? (maybe 10 by then?)

I doubt you will find much sympathy in the idea that your son cannot find more than 2 - 3 days away. Thats not going to fly. Stating you cannot go away in august due to exams is also, patently absurd. a) Not GCSE exams so not "key" exams and b) parents manage this all the time. If they are that key then she takes exam study material with her.

SO far you have had it explained that your "defences" dont appear to be anything of the sort. Yet you keep returning to them, without addressing the gaping, massives flaws.

11+ but in most areas where it still exists it is optional and the official line regardless is it doesn’t need any preparation.

When my child did 11+ we went away and took some material with us so they could still do some preparation (30 mins a day during the holidays - tops). However, anecdotally I am aware that some parents encourage their child to do 7 hours work a day during the summer holidays.

Thanks for giving me your time and energy and advice everyone.


I now have to proceed to final stages of preparation for imminent trial with whatever knowledge i have gained. I want to remain positive and do my best in present circumstances.

**Could i please get help from you experts in form of confirmation of what forms to fill and some general queries to face upcoming trial?

I will do all the homework and will just need confirmation.

So i hope to get more help - hopefully without getting judged as nothing can be changed now and my best option is to have as powerful defence as possible.

I will be back soon.



This post has been edited by chawal2: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 17:21

The bench is likely to use its discretion in regard to costs. The sentencing range for the fine goes up to a Band C for each offence (week and a half’s wages). There is a risk that both you and your partner walk away with two Band C fines each, one for each child. Has the council charged both of you with two offences of failure to ensure attendance, one for each child?

The prosecution won’t deliberately put barriers in your way, but the court’s legal adviser is likely to point out that certain lines of argument cannot be a defence, though they may still be mitigation. However I fear that what you think are points amounting to a defence are not. Certainly on here you present as someone who refuses even to consider that they have done anything wrong, despite many suggestions to the contrary.

That is your right, but if the bench disagrees your lack of insight will cost you. As more details emerge of what you claim to be the unavoidable reasons for the trip the more it seems to me that you are rushing headlong towards an easy conviction.

In respect of the 1A offence it’s not relevant that your children weren’t found out and about in a public place, so don’t place too much hope on that if you decide to defy the head in future. The distinguishing feature of 1A is that the parent knewtheir child was not attending. The vanilla s444 only requires that the child did not attend.

Southpaw has already pointed out (#136) that a s28 failure to comply with code argument is hopelessly misconceived. You might not have grasped the nuance, which is reasonable given that it deals with local government structures. The reference to member means “elected members”, ie councillors. When the employees of a council are referenced in legislation they are described as “officers”. Any complaint you may have is about the conduct of employed officers, not elected councillors, so s28 is irrelevant.

This post has been edited by blackcross: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 17:31

Thanks for your valuable advice.

This post has been edited by chawal2: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 17:31

Chawal - you still don't seem to have an answer as to how it was unavoidable.
If you can't explain it to us, how do you expect to do so to the court?

Nosferatu
I was trying to not answer here in public forum as information is of private nature. I had explained all this to council after they had sent me penalty notice without any warning etc for april trip.

I am the mother and my daughter had never been without me for a single night too. I have No relative in uk and i will never keep my daughter with any relative overnight or for anyone for sleepover too. My husband was worried about separation anxiety of the 9 year old child. She used to sometimes cry at night or sleep walk and i had to put her back to sleep. Not any more and she went to 5 days trip from school last week for the first time away from me and was fine. I had not planned to take her with me. But i took my husband's concern on board. Plus my husband thinks that daughter is best looked after by a mum or school experts, especially in pre-puberty age. we both put children first in our lives. He did not feel comfortable looking after her for a week and although he is v cooperative and helpful person and v devoted father, he did not think it was appropriate for my daughter to be left without me in the best interest of the child. i had no doubt on his analysis as he is v sensible genuine well educated person. **And can we really force spouse to look after child whilst we go away for a week? I had no plan to take my daughter and solely due to his advice i had to take her. Council knows. My parents funded our trip. That time i did not even have £2000 approximately to spend on fare for 2 people.

The child feeling well was our priority and education is secondary to health. Plus i m a trained teacher from my native country and taught my children at home on most weekdays during primary school term time and child was high achiever in most areas: music, academic, dance, swimming, drama etc.

This post has been edited by chawal2: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 - 22:31

@Nosferatu and @disgrunt...

i had a think about the 11 plus exams logic. it is optional but i took this option because my daughter is a high achiever and an academic school will nurture her best and i would struggle to find enough funds to pay for her private education (ie a private school of academic nature.)

**schools also do not allow any leave before SATS - so it is well recognised that before important exams, holidays must be avoided. SATS are not as important as 11 plus exams ie they do not impact a child's life ie do not influence which secondary school child starts. i agree 11plus exams are not as important as GCSE but they shape a child's life in the sense that a good school with similarly-abled classmates, and teachers focused on specific goals will make child flourish and help them achieve best in their chosen field which school supports.

my daughter got admission in top grammar school of UK so we did study and not made excuses.

@disgrunt...

not studying so many hours but my daughter also had 12 day creative writing course with a tuition centre during august and some mock exams and revision of maths and vocabulary building etc is an important activity before exams and should not be taken lightly. holiday before exams is likely to be very detrimental for children, especially of 9-10 years of age when they are too young and can easily get distracted. i was her primary mentor and if i went on holiday then i myself will lose focus and time.
so since 11 plus exams seemed and proved to be right option for my daughter (as she got offer from one of the best grammar schools in UK), it was not possible go on holiday in august.

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So your argument seems to be that YOU had to go and due to your daughters 'bond' with you that SHE had to go. I think the bench will take the view the opposite way round, that as she had to be in school you shouldn't have gone. There is no argument given why you HAD to go as opposed to WANTED to go.

I really don't see you having a defence here.

thanks for your valuable opinion.


i have to stick to the truth and except for words i should choose or what i should choose to highlight and what i should choose to *not voluntarily highlight is my focus.

as far as i understand from experts here, except death or illness there is no exception in law. this is news to me and a surprise to me, as legislation does not mention this; and unavoidable and exceptional dictionary meanings simply are:

unavoidable means necessary
exceptional means unsual

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Unavoidable/necessary, but nothing you've posted suggests it was either?

1. april 5 day absence: Unavoidable/necessary because of once-in-lifetime occasion of parents 50th wedding anniversary. it is debatable if it is avoidable or not. depends on the bonding and offspring's sincerity and devotion to parents. also depends on sense of responsibility for children

2. october 10 days last ever term-time absence request of my daughter: Unavoidable/necessary because we could not go in august 2018 and cannot go until next august 2019 so gap of 16-20 months for children although april contact was only of around 4 days. it is debatable if it is avoidable or not. depends on the bonding and offspring's sincerity and devotion to parents/grandparents. who decides how long and how frequent contact is necessary/unavoidable.

we know topic is debatable that is why council has gone ahead with prosecution.

This post has been edited by chawal2: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 09:24

I really think if that's your defence you should plead guilty and save yourself the prosecution costs when you lose.

The problem you face even with unavoidable=necessary is that it was not necessary to attend the wedding anniversary celebration. Attendance was desirable, but not necessary.

What schools do during SATs season is intended to ensure full attendance for league table purposes. It is not just about preparing for the tests. Even if it was it won’t help you as no-one is forced to entire their child for the 11+ as far as I am aware.

You will struggle to convince the bench that your daughter had to attend a creative writing course, even to boost her chances with the 11+. It may have been highly desirable, but it was not a matter of necessity and it was entirely avoidable. It is also the sort of thing that other families accept will mean they have to forego other travel options.

Whichever way you cut this, your trips and hence the absences from school appear to have been no more than desirable and hence were avoidable. You chose to travel in the knowledge that the school, or the council, would take action against you if you defied the head. They have followed through on that.

So far you have nothing to offer that looks like a defence to the charges. The sooner you realise that the better.

all,

i found this attached form to request 'further prosecution disclosure'. i will use it *only if i need something that i do not already have.

what i want to know is:

1. is there a time limit by when i should send this form - as prosecution also needs time to deal with my request?
2. is it ok that only i request for documents - and then both me and my spouse can use received documents; or does each of us has to apply for (same) documents separately?
3. what does the last question in the form mean (pasted in blue colour below)? i do not want to arrange for a hearing unless prosecution does not send me documents i want.

4) Do you want the court to arrange a hearing of this application ? YES / NO

If YES, explain why you think a hearing is needed. (If you do not ask for a hearing, the court may arrange one anyway.)


4. if i schedule a hearing for 'further prosecution disclosure' as in above query, then is it necessary for both defendants to be present in that disclosure related hearing or my presence is sufficient?
5. i assume that emailing this attached document to court email address and council case worker email address will be enough.

thanks to all the helpful experts.

1. As soon as you identify you need something more, it would normally be sent after you receive the list of unused material.
2. Do both, although I don't see an issue with you both using the material from one request as you'll presumably be tried together.
3. They don't have to send you the material just because you ask (they have to be able to justify why they won't), so you request a hearing if there will be anything they may not agree to share so the court can decide if you should have it or not.
4. Only one need attend as it will be legal arguments (you could send a solicitor and not attend at all).
5. Yes.